Jennifer Carroll MacNeill is well used to hearing from pol corrs. But Ireland’s new Minister of European Affairs freely admits she was taken aback when I sent her a WhatsApp message, asking if she’d be up for doing the Hot Press Interview. “I was genuinely curious as to why you’d be interested in me,” she says. “I just didn’t see that.”

The TD for Dún Laoghaire laughs, confessing that she’d always thought, “I was never really cool enough for Hot Press.”

Even after our interview Jennifer – who has been grilled countless times on national television – admits, “I was nervous about it. Because, you know, it’s just, ‘Oh my God! Hot Press is so cool!’”

She is, of course, being way too self-effacing. The 43-year-old now holds a vital government role – and in politics, you cannot get that much cooler than Minister of State for European Affairs.

Indeed, with two Ministerial positions under her belt to date, Jennifer has achieved much more in her short career – she was first elected to the Dáil in 2020 – than most TDs do in a lifetime. Let’s dive in and find out more!

Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

Jason O’Toole: Why didn’t you put your name forward to lead Fine Gael?
Jennifer Carroll MacNeill: I didn’t think it was the time, to be honest. Maybe sometime in the future.

So, you’d like to be Taoiseach one day?
I would love the opportunity to lead the country. Or to be in a leadership position. But it’s not something that I’d necessarily die in a ditch for either. Maybe someday if the time was right and people wanted me.

You replaced Maria Bailey as the Fine Gael candidate for your constituency. Do you feel she was unfairly treated?
Oh, that’s a really long time ago coming up to five years now. You know, that was dealt with at the time. I’m not sure that going back over that is going to help anyone.

So, you don’t want to answer it.
It was dealt with at the time.

At least 25 European countries have had women leaders, but not Ireland – isn’t that just wrong?
There is something a bit wrong there. We’ve never had a woman Minister for Finance! We’ve never had a woman Minister for Foreign Affairs. We’ve never had a woman Taoiseach. That’s three senior positions where we haven’t had women. Are women not relevant to those conversations? Are women not paying tax? The trouble is – because I’m a woman politician, it’s nearly my job to articulate it and fix it. And it’s a disruptive – instead of simply just getting on and doing the job in a professional way.

How do we get the ball rolling?
I think it’s an important question for men in a representative democracy: ‘Are you concerned that half of the population haven’t had that reflection in the most senior offices in Ireland? Not just often but ever!’ It’s a question for them to answer as much as it’s a question being posed to women.

You were in Finance as a Junior Minister…
I was the third woman ever to hold any Ministerial position in Finance. And now in the Department of Defence, I’m the second woman to hold a Ministerial position. Across those two serious departments, finance and security of the State, we’ve had five women ministers ever – and I’m two of them! There’s something a bit off with that in terms of a representative democracy.

As a female politician, is there a pressure to put a lot of effort into your attire?
I hope lots of politicians put effort into their attire. They’re representing the people.

Most male politicians get away with the same old shirt and tie really.
I don’t know. I just look like myself. I haven’t really changed. I’ve always been interested in clothes, but I don’t think it’s a job requirement. I’d like to have made the effort to turn up as well as I can. I’m not going to turn up casually in jeans, or looking scruffy.

You were mocked on social media over your appearance on Virgin Media’s Tonight Show in 2021. Did that hurt you?
Sure I get mocked by social media all the time. It doesn’t bother me. I can’t keep track of all the different things that social media would have me do with my appearance. But that night – it was during Covid – they were saying, ‘How can your one have done her hair and her face? She’s obviously gotten it done professionally, and that’s in breach of the rules!’ Which couldn’t have been further from the truth. It was me basically doing it in the bath. During Covid, everyone’s hair was a bit of a disaster. But it was so like scraped up and with a bit of hairspray. You get silly stuff like that. I don’t pay any attention to it.

In 2022, a Limerick man was convicted of harassing you, by sending you sexually explicit videos and images. That must have been a horrendous experience.
Again, it’s a long time ago. It was during the 2020 election. So, I’ve sort of forgotten about it. I hope it wouldn’t be a barrier to other women coming into politics. But, again, it’s counter-intuitive: the more I talk about it – which was dealt with appropriately by the Gardaí and the courts – the more I create barriers for the women coming in. Instead of talking about how ‘This is a fantastic job where you get to represent your community, you have the opportunity to work as part of the State architecture – isn’t it a marvellous thing?’ I’d much rather tell that story to prospective politicians than discuss blips and inconveniences.

After the recent protests outside the Minister for Justice Helen McEntee’s house, Simon Harris said politicians need more protection. Is there a fear now that we could end up with a politician being attacked or even murdered?
Yes. I’m the Minister on the Task Force for politician’s safety that the Ceann Comhairle set up with the former Garda Commissioner, Nóirín O’Sullivan. What I worry about is the random attack. I’ve seen colleagues who have had [heated] people coming into their constituency offices, who have had things thrown at them at public events. We just need one of those to go too far and it becomes incredibly serious. And that’s what I’d be most worried about for politicians. Because that’s what happened in the UK with Jo Cox and David Amess. Both were essentially random events, but from a backdrop of increasing vitriol towards politicians generally.

Would you have any objection to going into government with Sinn Féin?
We’re not compatible in terms of policy. I don’t think they function like a normal political party.  And I really see difficulty with Sinn Féin not finding, within themselves, the capacity to condemn the people who committed violence. I still see celebrations and commemorations of the people who committed such violence. I still see families of the disappeared begging Sinn Féin representatives for help in finding the bodies.

What’s your view of the UK’s decision to send asylum seekers to Rwanda?
I think the United Kingdom needs an election!

With the threat of war increasing, a lot of politicians seem to think privately that we should consider joining NATO.
In Ireland? The NATO conversation is a total distraction. The real conversation is: how do we build up our own security structures? There’s no point in anybody coming out and saying, ‘Oh yeah, we’re going to double the number of people in defence forces next year’. Of course we’re not, that takes time.

Some people say Ireland is hardly a neutral country when we allow US military planes to use Shannon Airport.
It’s militarily neutral in that we don’t participate in military alliances. But we’re not politically neutral. We’re not remotely politically neutral on the question of Ukraine.

Ireland would potentially be a target in a war with Russia. Shannon could be bombed as a stop-over for the US military, and there’d be cyberattacks because so many US tech firms have their European HQs here.
We have already had a cyberattack on the health system during COVID. I was speaking to my Estonian colleague the other day in Brussels, and they are having constant cyberattacks. I mean, hundreds every day. The same in Lithuania – constant cyberattacks, as well as a whole range of other measures designed to disrupt their democracies. Instrumentalised migration is basically weaponised migration – taking hundreds of people and pushing them over the border, creating instability in these established democracies. The fact that we’re geographically further away is important. We’re not right on the border with Belarus and Russia. But there’s no reason to suspect that Ireland is immune to these threats.

We are part of the EU.
We are a Western democracy and we’re not the sort of politics that Russia likes to see do well and be successful. And the threat of disinformation, the threat of disruption to democracy, is just as live here as we go into our electoral cycle, as it has been right across all of the other democracies in Europe.

Would you be worried that Shannon Airport could be a possible target?
No, I wouldn’t go into that. What we’ve seen in other countries is this persistent effort to undermine the functional democracies across Western Europe in different ways – including cyberattacks, including disinformation. We need to be very aware of that here, too.

You worked for Alan Shatter – is it fair to say you’d disagree completely with him in relation to Israel’s war on Palestine?
I don’t know what Alan has said about it. I wouldn’t fully support the Israel stance, nor would I support the stance of Hamas. I would be very much against Hamas, and I would be very much against Netanyahu. They’re both moving further away from a two-State solution. At a conference, Mahmoud Abbas was talking about the need for there to be a Palestinian state, with which I would agree; the need for there to be a secure Israel, which I would agree.

Do you see what’s happening in Gaza as genocide?
I don’t think it’s helpful for me to go down that road, particularly given my job and that there’s cases Ireland may like to participate in. So, I leave that to Micheál Martin to make decisions around how we participate in those different cases. But my view is very clear – there needs to be an immediate ceasefire. It’s urgent. It’s a catastrophe what’s happening there, an absolute catastrophe.

Should Ireland boycott the Eurovision over the involvement of Israel?
No, I don’t think so. They should just participate.

Is it hypocritical that Russia was booted out of the contest after invading Ukraine – and yet Israel is allowed to carry on regardless?
I would love to tell you that I knew a huge amount about the Eurovision, but I really don’t. I was at a dinner last year with the Prime Minister of Luxembourg, the Finance Minister of Luxembourg and Leo Varadkar. And I prepared by looking at everything that it’s possible to know about Luxembourg, including financial services, everything. Then, our whole dinner conversation was about the Eurovision! I learned things I didn’t know – for example, that Australia is in the Eurovision. What are they doing in the Eurovision? I can’t figure that out at all.

What type of music do you like?
I like loads of different types of music. At the moment in my car, or on my iPod, I listen to a lot of R&B, a lot of rap.  I listen to Doja Cat. I love The Weeknd. I think he’s got the most beautiful, angelic voice. I absolutely love Megan Thee Stallion. So, I listen to a lot of music in the car, in the gym or out walking.

Were you always a music nut?
I was always really interested in jazz music and female singers: Ella Fitzgerald and Diana Krall and Nina Simone in particular. And they’re very much of the same genre. They’re just at different moments along the same journey – strong female singers.

I heard you’re a big Guns N’ Roses fan.
It’s a sort of a split personality in music. Yeah, I’m a huge Guns N’ Roses fan. I’ve travelled to a couple of different places to see them around Europe. But my biggest regret is, I had two tickets for their rescheduled concert in Marley Park and I gave them away because it was a dull day and there was a party budget meeting that night. I gave the tickets away. And if I was doing it again, I would never do that.

I once did a three-hour interview with the guitarist Bumblefoot who replaced Slash in Guns N’ Roses.
You can’t replace Slash! I mean, every respect to the man, but you can’t do that. I remember Slash playing the Godfather theme tune, a cappella, in both concerts. I was trying to both watch it and record it at the same time, but I really should have just watched it. It’s just extraordinary. He’s an exceptional guitarist. He was playing recently at the 3Arena. I couldn’t go. But, in any event, I was also like, ‘Slash on his own?’

Slash. Credit: Ed Vill

What’s the best gig you’ve ever attended?
Oh, Guns N’ Roses. The two Guns N’ Roses concerts I travelled to in Prague and Berin. They’re probably most fresh in my memory as well. I also have this memory of going to see James Brown in The Point. I’m wondering, did I just dream it? I can’t find a record of it, but I’m sure it was there.

I heard you were in a gospel choir.
Who told you that? I’ve managed to not say that for years! I was in a really good one – the Dublin Gospel Choir. It’s 20 years since I was a member. Yeah, I loved it. And we did extraordinary gigs. Coming up to Christmas, you’d be rehearsing three for four gigs a week. I was on Ballykissangel with the gospel choir. I sang in The Point at least twice, before it switched direction – so it was that lovely, long Point Theatre. I’ve played in the Temple Theatre, in Vicar Street and in pretty much every random church in Dublin, from Raheny to Firhouse. It was so much fun. I loved it.

Which gigs at The Point?
I sang there with Aslan. Christy Dignam was a beautiful singer. And you might not believe this, but it’s true: Elvis Presley in 2001, in the Elvis Live Tour. I know Elvis was dead! But The Jordanaires were there and the original backing singers. And basically it was Elvis on this 80-foot screen in The Point – his voice taken from one of the Vegas gigs. All of the music was live with his voice superimposed on it. We did ‘Bridge Over Troubled Water’. And I think we did, I mean, I call it the Dixieland Trilogy, but I know it’s called ‘An American Trilogy’. And, oh, my goodness. At the end of it, the bright lights came on – you could see the whole Point, 10,000 people going back. All the little American flags. An extraordinary gig.

Have you ever smoked marijuana?
No. I never smoked marijuana, never taken any drugs – or at least I don’t remember smoking marijuana! Maybe that’s a better, more honest answer.

What does that mean?
I can’t be completely responsible for everything I’ve done at four o’clock in the morning that I can’t remember! But I don’t ever remember smoking marijuana, put it that way. Is that a good answer?

I’m guessing you’re probably religious seeing as you were in a choir.
No, not at all. I just like the music.

So, you don’t believe in heaven and hell?
No, I don’t. I’m not religious at all. But the music was phenomenal. Religious music often is, whether it’s gospel choirs, or you go to St. Patrick’s and listen to the choirs there. It doesn’t have to be about God. I mean, they’re uplifting. But music generally is.

What’s your stance on introducing euthanasia where someone chooses it freely?
Very difficult one. I voted to let it go forward to a committee to discuss it. We got a lot of evidence from the medical community who were very concerned about it and about vulnerable people. But, at the same time, if you are the individual who wants to make that decision, I’m not exactly sure why it’s my job to tell you that you can’t. So, my concern is how we would achieve the protection of vulnerable people in that conversation.

You married a much older man – 22 years older.  What’s your view on the new orthodoxy that there’s something fundamentally wrong with that kind of age gap between couples?
I’d probably prefer not to discuss being married.

I was just wondering did you ever hear any snide remarks about being married to someone older? Or did your parents have any reservations about it?
No.

In July 2022 you criticised the pace of the reform of sex education for primary school students. You said, “We can either drop our kids to school and wonder which of them, 20 years from now, will be the abusers and which will be the abused, like every generation before them. Or we can ask what can we positively, constructively do that gives their generation a real shot at a different set of attitudes and norms in relation to equality and consent and inclusion.”
They were, at that time, doing the senior cycle, moving on to the junior cycle, then the primary cycle. My view was, why can’t they be done more quickly? And now, in the intervening period, the primary school cycle is out for development and consultation. I think my first parliamentary question on it, in July 2020, was, ‘When is this happening? Are you rolling it out in September?’ Which I admit, even by my standards, might’ve been a bit fast. But this conversation has been going on for a long time…

You spoke very strongly back in 2021 against the Roman Catholic RSE programme for primary schools, called Flourish. You said, “State services should be secular.”
We had found content, as part of those (Flourish) materials, that I brought to the attention of the Department of Education. Crucially, I remember one RSE teacher, in Cork, had brought to my attention – and to the Department of Education’s attention – really incredibly offensive content, particularly in relation to homosexuality. So, it was urgent that that should be removed. But I think the solution is a different RSE programme, which is why I was highlighting the urgency of getting on with it.

What would your approach to sex education be?
I’ve highlighted many times that we have had a very long epidemic of gender, sexual and domestic violence – that we have had an imbalance in the conversation and experience between girls and boys, men and women. And that the only way of addressing that is through a very different form of education that is much more based on personhood and boundaries and respect and consent. And that the sooner that starts, the better. There is an urgency about getting on with these things – there were children who started school in 2020 who are now halfway through their primary cycle. I’m not saying that nothing has happened. There are lots of schools that are already doing that, but these education experiences need to be uniform.

What did you think when you read about the activities of Fr Brendan Smyth and the other many paedophile priests?
That’s partly my difficulty with the Catholic Church. I never really believed in God, to be honest with you. But I have a huge persistent – to this day – difficulty with the Catholic Church and their handling of these child sex abuse scandals, whether it’s in Blackrock College, Cloyne, or wherever. The Catholic Church, I think, has persistently disgraced itself in their handling of the care of the most vulnerable children to whom atrocious, appalling life-altering things were done. I recognise that it’s not everybody in the Catholic Church. I recognise there are a lot of people who are very sorry about it and who still wish to participate in the institution of the Catholic Church, and full respect for that. But I don’t need to hear anything about morality from the Roman Catholic Church on any matter.

What steps should the Catholic Church be taking to atone for their crimes?
I think they should be doing everything they can. I don’t think they can do enough to lean in and make reparation to people. I don’t think that they can do enough to provide them with information if they’re looking for it. I don’t think they can do enough to apologise, to take responsibility, to take accountability. I do not think that they can do enough to make reparation – for the harm that they did to children in Ireland, and for using their weapons of intelligence and their weapons of influence to cover up the wrong that was done to children in Ireland for so very long. I feel very, very strongly about it.

A lot of people see the role of the Catholic Church in relation to sex as having been a very damaging one – but it clearly still is…
I prefer to see a secular society, where personhood, consent, boundaries, individuality, are respected. I’m not sure that’s consistent with the historical teachings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps they will update themselves. Certainly, I’ve been much more interested in the children in my constituency receiving an education based on personhood and consent and respect and boundaries and individuality – and not based on a religious doctrine.

Do you remember what you were taught in school about sex?
I remember there being a sixth-class programme with a book and some kind of triangle where everybody ‘fit’ into a triangle, and you were having sex or something, and some kind of triangle of God and two people, and – I don’t know! It didn’t make sense to me then [laughs] – it doesn’t make any sense to me now!

At what stage did you decide that you were your own boss in relation to all of that?
Pretty much forever. Yeah, from day one, probably.

Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

A huge number of people now think that porn is fine – what’s your view on that?
I don’t have a difficulty with adults using porn, but the questions that come into it are the ethics around how it was made. Let’s be very clear: it is not always ethical. Again, what you’re talking about is the balance between people’s freedom to do whatever they want, which I don’t have any difficulty with at all, and the protection of vulnerable women.

Access to the internet can be a factor.
There was a very good study from Galway showing that boys as young as eight and nine and 10 are accessing very violent porn. And then the depiction of very violent porn being shown to boys who are very young and how that plays out in their sexual experiences, and the development of their sexuality over time, and what the impact of that is going to be on the girls and women in their lives. I have no difficulty with porn in itself, but do I want to see women being trafficked and used and videoed in ways that are not consensual? No, absolutely not. Do I want to see my son or anybody else’s son having such easy access to this material? No, absolutely not. Do I want it to contribute to sexual violence? No, absolutely not.

So what’s the solution to protect young boys from seeing violent porn?
A lot of it is about the regulation of content on social media, on the internet. I don’t know what the answer is, to be honest. But how does a parent protect their own child? There’s a very strong movement now around making sure that kids aren’t getting smartphones until they’re well into secondary school.

Young people can easily believe anything they see online.
My son told me that Cristiano Ronaldo eats KFC every single day! I was like, ‘I’m pretty sure he doesn’t’. I’ve seen that man with his shirt off. He definitely does not. And I was like, ‘How do you know that?’ He’s like, ‘Oh, it’s on the internet’. I was like, ‘Sweetie, we’ve got to talk about the internet. That is 100% not true’. And that ‘Lionel Messi drinks Pepsi Max every single day!’ I was like, ‘There’s literally no way – that man’s an athlete’. You’ve got to teach children that the internet isn’t real, isn’t true. And that’s as relevant for Cristiano Ronaldo and his KFC as it is, in a much more serious way, for the depiction of women in violent porn that young boys can access.

Is your view that there should be an age limit for youngsters to have access to smart phones?
Yeah. I mean, why does a 10-year-old need a smartphone? I can understand why you might get one of those old Nokia phones for contact. But, apart from the access to dangerous material, there’s the sheer impact on concentration. I’ve no doubt that access to a smartphone impacts concentration.

The implication is that action is needed.
I am glad that I didn’t grow up with a smartphone. I’m glad that I had the boredom, and the curiosity, to read everything I could, and play on the road with my friends. And children are being pulled more and more from that experience. And so, if you can maintain the childhood experience for longer, I would have thought that’s not a bad thing to do. It’s good to see that conversation happening collectively among classes, among schools and making collective decisions because it does make it much easier for parents.

What age limit would you put on it?
Well, if it was my child I would say going into secondary school at the earliest.

What’s your view of the measures that have been taken in the UK against the Tavistock child gender identity clinic, the accusation having been made that kids shouldn’t be undergoing radical and permanent transition surgery at a young age?
I did raise it. I mean, to my mind, the longer that you can put off something that’s unalterable, the better. And if people need counselling, if they need to have their identity recognised in ways, you know, their name, fine, absolutely fine. I really admire Minister of State Mary Butler, for example, who has had within her family the experience [with her transgender son] of going through a process of this kind, and has spoken very clearly and very openly about it. She has faced the challenges that any parent would have in this situation. And I would be much more inclined to listen to her than anybody else on this subject.

Are you someone who objects to the so-called woke agenda?
What does it mean? Like, I mean, ‘I’m woke when I’m not asleep!’ I mean, what the hell? This is some kind of artificially constructed culture war that is unnecessary. I am pro-women making choices about their healthcare. I am pro-equality, whether that’s in terms of marriage, age, race. You know, what more do you want? I’m not going to fit into somebody else’s artificially constructed culture war.

Do you see politics as a lifelong career?
I don’t know whether I’m in politics for five years, 10 years, 15 years. I don’t know what the future holds, but I’m perfectly okay with it. Whatever way it goes, that’s fine. To be honest, I never expected to be here in the first place. I am bemused by the whole thing a little bit. And I have a sense of humour about it. And it’ll end someday. Maybe it’ll end in a pile of flames or maybe it’ll end just in some very boring, discreet way.

And beyond that?
It will end, and life will go on. And there’ll be an occasional gin and tonic in that life, and it’ll be nice and discreet – and it might be in the sunshine. And you know? That’s all fine by me. And whenever I finish in politics, I will delete all my social media immediately. Everything gone, and I’ll just live a different life.

• Special thanks to Haddington House Hotel for the photoshoot location.