Eoin Ryan, T.D.

They both enjoyed the odd jazz Woodbine as students but that – on the face of it – is where the similarities between Mo Mowlam and Eoin Ryan end.

While the former Northern Ireland Secretary put herself to the political sword by calling for its decriminalisation, the Government’s new ‘drugs Czar’ started his reign by saying that there will be no relaxation of the cannabis laws while Fianna Fáil is in office. His boss, Minister for Justice John O’Donoghue, was even more forthright when he stated, “As long as I’m in the Justice portfolio there will be no watering down of the fallacious distinction between so-called soft and hard drugs.”

To emphasis the point, he imposed a minimum mandatory jail sentence of 10 years for those convicted of dealing in drugs to the value of £10,000. Needless to say, it’s had no impact at street level with the latest annual figures showing a record tally of 6,454 drug cases. Of those, a whopping 4,447 involved cannabis.

That seemed to be that until, deviating from the usual ‘zero tolerance’ stance, Eoin Ryan proffered that “no one should go to jail for the personal use of cannabis.” An even bigger bombshell was round the corner when, asked by a journalist if he’d ever taken an illegal substance, the 47-year-old admitted to a youthful flirtation with marijuana.

Suddenly, the new man at the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation didn’t seem quite so intransigent.

The grandson of legendary Fianna Fáiller Dr. Jim Ryan, the Dublin South-East TD was first tipped for a cabinet post in the mid-‘90s, but had to wait until January 2000 for his ministerial call-up.

As overseer of the recently unveiled Building On Experience: National Drugs Strategy 2001 – 2008, Ryan has been entrusted with solving Ireland’s heroin crisis; getting to grips with the spiralling use of ecstasy and cocaine; and deciding whether the estimated 800,000 cannabis smokers here should really be regarded as criminals.

While many professional drug workers have already begged to differ, Eoin Ryan believes that all of these conundrums are addressed in the 138-page policy document.

STUART CLARK: Explain the ethos behind Building On Experience?

EOIN RYAN: Well, up to now the National Drugs Strategy has only really covered the local drug taskforce areas. These are the areas worst affected by heroin. And it became increasingly clear to anybody who was involved in the drug field, and the Department here, that we needed to look at a wider strategy and something that was going to cover the whole country. We also needed to find out what were the gaps in services, how do we need to improve the present strategy, and move it on.

What, compared to the way things have been done in the past, are the most radical changes?

First of all it’s countrywide, and secondly each government department has areas it must cover. There are key objectives set out, and targets to meet over the coming years. The changes in it, really, are that anybody who’s involved in the drug field now knows exactly where responsibility lies – whether it’s within the health boards or a government department – and who should and should not be delivering within the service.

Were those boundaries and responsibilities blurred in the past?

They were very blurred, particularly in the public consultation process that was gone through. We had eight public forums around the country, and about 190 written submissions. After we’d done all that, we met about 35 different groups in a very relaxed situation. We chose those. Some of them were government departments. Some of them were people like UISCE who were active drug user groups. We wanted to get as wide a bunch of people as we possibly could. Out of that it became fairly obvious where the gaps in the services were, what were the problems, what were the areas we needed to address.

Did the consultative process throw up anything unforeseen?

One of the things that surprised us was the extent and concern about underage drinking. Around the country people would say to us, “yes, there’s a drug problem”, but another problem we have is underage drinking. That’s one of the reasons why we included people from the National Alcohol Unit in the National Drugs Strategy team, and also in the regional structures. In the long term, I can see the two policies being amalgamated into one.

Do you regard alcohol as a drug?

Oh yeah. Alcohol is definitely a drug, and one that’s caused a lot of problems in Ireland.

Isn’t it the case that if it was invented today, alcohol would be banned?

Absolutely. There’s no question about it.

What do you think of the alcohol industry’s deliberate targeting of the youth market through music and sport sponsorship?

I think we’re definitely going to have to change, and the alcohol industry are going to have become far more responsible about what they’re doing. We are already emerging with serious problems. I gather that the number of young women presenting for treatment with alcohol is increasing dramatically, and an awful lot of these drinks are being made up for young girls. There should not be sponsorship by drink industries. They’ve got to realise that they have a huge social responsibility here.

Does that extend to Guinness’ sponsorship of the GAA?

I would have serious concerns about major drink companies sponsoring major sporting events, yeah.

There’s constant reference in the report to “harm reduction”. What’s your definition of that phrase?

Harm reduction within this is to stop the spread of HIV and hepatitis. To stop the other problems that active heroin users get involved in. To prevent people getting into difficulties with drugs, and getting into difficulties with addiction.

So, you’re accepting that people are taking drugs, and will continue to do so.

They smoke, they drink and they take illicit drugs as well. What we’ve got to try and do is educate people on the harmful effects that can occur, both for yourself and your family and your community.

One of the report’s most groundbreaking recommendations is that heroin and methadone programmes be made available to under-18s without parental consent.

What we’re doing is looking at a protocol to cover that. One of the things that emerged in the consultation process is that there were young under-18-year-olds presenting for treatment, and the medical people saying they had great difficulty in treating them because they didn’t have parental consent. We’re trying to resolve that, because obviously if anyone who’s under-18 presents for treatment, we want to help them.

How does this taking away of parental responsibility tally with Fianna Fáil’s reputation as the ‘Party of Family’?

We’re not necessarily saying that we’re taking away parental responsibility. Some cases present with their family and there’s family support. One of the things we’re looking at is the drug maltraxone, which is used within the family. It’s an inhibitor. The family make sure that their son or daughter take maltraxrone in the morning, and if they don’t, the alarm bells ring that there’s something wrong here. What we’re trying to do is widen the options when people present. We don’t necessarily want in a few years time that the only option is methadone. There are other drugs emerging now that deal with addiction, certainly in America. What we have to do is look at the successful ones.

What do the party’s more conservative elements make of all this?

It’s been circulated in the party, and it’s gone through cabinet, and there were no objections. I have to say that from all parts of government there was a lot of positive feedback. People welcomed it. And I think it would have been remiss of us not to tackle the problem of under-18-year-olds. You can’t just turn around and say you can’t have treatment because you’re seventeen-and-a-half, come back in six months.

Why has it taken Ireland 10 years longer than the UK and America to reach this point in the drugs debate?

I have to say that I think a lot of people ignored the drug problem. There were people who shouted early on and weren’t listened to. I suppose that the three larger parties were remiss in not responding earlier, and not realising that there was a serious heroin problem emerging in certain communities and getting in there quickly and addressing it. That said, since the Local Drug Taskforce was set up under Pat Rabbitte and Chris Flood, it’s definitely brought the whole process forward. I think that communities are really beginning to change their attitude. They’re beginning to see the positive elements and positive aspects of tackling this in a more holistic way, as opposed to marching up and down outside people’s flats shouting ‘get out’, ‘drug dealers all out’. I was in the Basin Street flats the other day, right in the centre in a place where young addicts are being treated, and they’re all part of the community now.

When you talk of “community involvement”, does that include the sort of campaign that was mounted by Concerned Parents?

Vigilante groups? That’s no longer a debate. That group made a submission to us, which is much more positive than it had been years before. I think they realise that this is the way to go forward now.

Did it in the past present a publicity coup to Sinn Féin?

It’s easy to condemn it, but at the time… If you were living in a flat complex and you were going up the steps and there were people openly injecting… There were needles all over the place and children were expected to play. There was open dealing and all the anti-social behaviour that brings about. Parents were terrified. Some people jumped on the bandwagon and channelled that reaction into marching up and down. But I have to say, Citywide and Local Drug Taskforces have had a much more positive impact and that’s no longer an issue.

Of particular interest to hotpress readers is the recommendation that “Gardaí object to the renewal of licences for publicans and night-club owners where there has been a history of drug dealing on the premises.”

It’s important that clubs act responsibly. One of the things that came up some time ago is that people had turned off the taps in toilets and there was no water. That’s a very irresponsible thing to do. We actually had a student union in here and they asked us for materials that they could distribute within their own clubs, and we said that we have no problem helping them finance that. They haven’t come back to us, but they probably will before the new university term starts. You’ve got to make sure that people are properly looked after, and there’s safety nets for them there.

Do you see dance music in general as a problem?

No, I don’t necessarily see dance music as a problem in itself.

You wouldn’t consider clubbers to be more likely to take drugs than rock fans?

No, if people want to listen to music it’s their own entitlement. They listen to the kind of music they want, and it’d be absolutely daft for anyone in government to say “don’t.” That goes back to the early ’60s in the southern states of America. Crazy stuff.

Have you been to a dance club yourself recently?

I’ve been to the PoD. I’ve been around. I enjoy music myself. I wouldn’t necessarily say I enjoy that kind. My teenage son and daughter and their friends, they enjoy dance music. I was in Blast in Temple Bar on a Saturday afternoon. I went in to have a look at that, because this is an alcohol-free thing. I must say I was very impressed. Good fun and people were obviously enjoying themselves. If you’re asking me have I been to a huge big rave, no I haven’t.

Isn’t the real “gateway” drug alcohol?

There is no question that alcohol is leading to a big problem in this country. Binge drinking is particularly a problem, and is something that we have to address in a number of different ways. Both educationally, and putting facilities in right around the country for young people so that they don’t have to go to the pub.

Was it the best use of police resources at the weekend to make 580 drug seizures at Creamfields?

Well, I suppose there’s a general concern about young people at an event like that – the poly drug use and what it leads to. There’s a feeling out there that it’s so widely available, and in use, and nothing’s being done about it. That’s up to the Department of Justice and the Gardaí. It’s not really up to us to enforce the law at an event like that.

Is it desirable, from your point of view, that all those people be prosecuted?

I don’t know. I’m not that up on it because I’ve been so busy over the weekend. But certainly, if you’re asking me if people should go to prison for cannabis use, the answer is “no”. I’d definitely have more concerns about ecstasy and the problems it’s bringing about. We saw that over the weekend in England. And also there are growing concerns within health boards about the number of people presenting for heroin problems, who are saying that the first time they took heroin was to come down off ecstasy. That figure could be as high now as 20%, which is a very worrying thing. When we consulted with other countries on their drug strategy, one of their main concerns is the whole area of poly drug use. One drug leading onto another. But that said, I don’t believe cannabis is a gateway drug.

You don’t consider cannabis to be a gateway drug?

No, I don’t. I just don’t believe that has been proven at all.

Is there a distinction to be made between soft and hard drugs?

I think there is. As far as cannabis is concerned, the jury’s out. A lot of people put in the argument that we should legalise it. But the facts are – and I’ve read a lot about this since I got the job – there’s been very little decent research done on cannabis since the late ’70s. It’s a carcinogenic, much more so than tobacco. There are about 400 chemical compounds and 60 different cannibanoids within the plant. We don’t know what the long-term effects of them are. I think that has to be addressed before anybody can responsibly say “yes”, we should legalise it or take it further. Look at all of the cases going on about tobacco. In 20 years time, do we want a whole lot of cases about the side effects of cannabis? There are people arguing that we’re wasting money going after people with cannabis, but I’ve said publicly before that heroin is the one drug that’s causing most of the problems to individuals, communities and families. I believe that that should be our main target.

So you would see “soft drug” as a fair term for cannabis?

I think it’s unproven. If you’re to look at the facts, cannabis doesn’t seem to have the proven downside effects, at this stage, of a lot of other drugs. But we don’t know. We’re dealing in something that we don’t have quantitative research on. That’s one of the reasons that we set up the National Advisory Committee on Drugs – to get proper research done in the country on what was happening.

Doesn’t your attitude towards cannabis put you at direct odds with John O’Donoghue?

Not necessarily.

He said last year – and I quote – “there will be no watering down of the fallacious distinction between so-called soft and hard drugs.”

You’re saying that I’m saying it’s soft. I’m saying the jury is out on cannabis. Until somebody comes in and proves that cannabis is not dangerous, then I can’t see us taking the step of legalising it. And I don’t believe the research has been done. We certainly can’t find it. Anything I read comes back to the same thing, which is that we’re dealing with a substance that we honestly don’t know what the long-term effects are.

Isn’t irresponsible of politicians – and, indeed, journalists – to say that cannabis is as dangerous as heroin?

For us to go out and say to people, “Don’t do drugs ‘cause they’re going to kill you, or make you go mad”, is absolutely stupid. It’s going to have no impact. What we’ve got to do is educate people on their own responsibility, the downside to drugs and the effect that they may have to themselves or their friends. It has to be a broader public awareness campaign than maybe has been done up to now. Certainly, when we looked at them in other countries, we were told that scare campaigns don’t work.

Did you see Nick Davies’ The Drug Laws Don’t Work: The Phoney War documentary series on Channel 4?

Somebody has them taped and I want to watch them.

Would you consider the drug debate in the UK to be more developed than it is here?

Yes, I do. Their’s is obviously more developed, as they’re having television programmes and discussing it.

Several English Chief Constables have said it’s no longer practical or desirable to pursue offenders for small amounts of cannabis.

If you’re dealing with the areas we’re dealing with, I much prefer to see them going after people who are selling heroin, rather than going after people with small amounts of cannabis.

Do the Gardaí have the jurisdiction to make that decision for themselves?

To be honest, the answer to that is “I don’t know whether they do.” The Gardaí themselves seem to be seizing more heroin and ecstasy recently than they were. We didn’t tell the Gardaí at any stage that they should back off on softer drugs. We were quite forthright in saying to them that, “the amount of heroin you seized was not as high as we felt it should be, considering the number of users in Ireland.” But that said, right across Europe heroin has collapsed in price. Huge quantities have been dumped in from Afghanistan.

Do you know how much it costs to take a cannabis case to court?

I don’t know.

Why not? Wouldn’t it be useful to know?

Well, it would be quite useful to know. The answer is “I don’t.” (laughs)

The figure that’s widely quoted in the UK is £10,000. Shouldn’t an economic factor like that be taken into consideration?

We’re co-ordinating a National Drugs Strategy. That’s a question you’d have to ask the Department of Justice. Nobody has ever asked us what the cost of taking somebody to court is for any offence, whether it’s heroin or cannabis. It would be an interesting question, actually.

You’ve gone on record as saying that you’ve used cannabis in the past. Does that make you better equipped for the job you’re in now?

God, I don’t know. I’m not too sure it makes that much of a difference. I think it’d be wrong to say it does, ‘cause that means anyone who hasn’t is somehow in less of a position to do it. And I don’t think that’s correct.

At what point did you admit to Bertie Ahern that you’d smoked cannabis?

I was asked the question by a journalist and I answered it. That was it.

It wasn’t something that you’d discussed beforehand with the party?

No.

What was the reaction?

“You were asked the question and you answered it”. I certainly wasn’t dragged in and told, “What the hell are you saying?”

Did you ever try a Class A drug?

No.

Paul McCartney. Smoked dope for 40 years. Where’s the obvious harm?

Again, people smoke cigarettes for 40 years and where’s the obvious harm? I can give you loads of people who smoke cigarettes and drink, and they’re in their ‘80s and they’re as healthy as anybody else. But then you can go to various different hospitals where people are dying of cancer and side-effects of tobacco.

It hasn’t hampered him work-rate or creativity-wise.

Obviously not. I must say I wouldn’t like a lot of his music in recent years!

Bill Hicks said something along the lines of “If you’re vehemently anti-drugs, you might as well throw 80% of your album collection out the window.” There must be records in your collection that wouldn’t have been created without the help of hallucinogens.

Absolutely. There are lots of people – writers and poets and you name it – who were heavily influenced by one drug or another. Whether it was opium or cannabis or whatever.

If you found a friend or relative of yours with heroin, would your first call be to a drug counsellor or the Gardaí?

If I found a friend of mine with heroin, I would obviously get him help. Definitely. And, in fact, since I’ve taken this job I’ve had phone calls from people who’ve said to me, “Listen, somebody I know is in hell. What can we do? Where can we channel this person? What sort of treatment can we get them?”

Surely, the law is an ass if somebody in your position is saying that they wouldn’t involve the Gardaí.

Oh, I don’t think so. It’s an obvious thing to try and help somebody who has a heroin problem, as opposed to dragging them down to the Garda station. I suppose the policy has been that anybody like that you’d call the Gardaí, but what we’re trying to do is help these people.

You’d regard a heroin user as being ill, rather than a criminal?

Yeah, I’d see them as needing help.

Has it ever occurred to you that had you been prosecuted for cannabis as a youngster, your political career would have been stillborn?

It has occurred to me, yeah. I don’t think there are many people in this country who’ve been convicted first time round for taking small amounts of cannabis. Certainly it’s something that didn’t come up in the public consultation process. We expected that we were going to get more written submissions in on that area, but we didn’t.

Does recreational cannabis use warrant a criminal record?

I don’t think that people who’ve been caught with small amounts of cannabis should have a criminal record, and I’ve said that before.