Conor Lenihan in the Hot Press Interview

Conor Lenihan’s political pedigree is second to none. As son of the legendary Fianna Fail minister Brian Lenihan, and nephew of current Senator Mary O’Rourke, he was perhaps destined to end up in Leinster House. Still, he deliberated for some time before taking the plunge into the political hothouse, building up a promising career as a print journalist and radio broadcaster before finally opting to follow in his father’s footsteps, a decision he attributes to his experiences reporting on the Northern Ireland Peace Process.

A TD since 1997, he is one of the new breed of Fianna Fail deputies likely to come to national prominence when Bertie Ahern announces his cabinet reshuffle later this year. In person he is an energetic, animated speaker, able to talk authoritatively on a wide range of topics - qualities likely to prove important both to himself and his party in what are highly intriguing times for the governing FF/PD coalition.

PAUL NOLAN: What’s your assessment of the health of Fianna Fail following the local and European elections?

CONOR LENIHAN: Well, it was a huge setback for us really. More than anything else, it’s a reflection of the two years in government where you’re implementing policies that are unpopular, precisely because you’re paring back public spending. But make no mistake about it, it was necessary to pare back public spending post-2002, and the government had to make some very tough decisions. They took those decisions, and in the end they paid the electoral price.

There was more upheaval in the party recently following Charlie McCreevy’s departure for Brussels. Was his exit ascribable to unrest amongst backbench TDs?
Well, I’m a personal friend and a great fan of Charlie McCreevy. I don’t agree with him on everything, but I don’t think there was any suggestion that he was pushed or moved on. He’s not the sort of man who would allow himself to be told what to do; he’s a very tough, robust kind of character. At the end of the day he decided to go of his own volition, and also, the Taoiseach has actually nominated someone who is perhaps our best Minister to go to Brussels and represent the country.

The day after the appointment, Pronsias DeRossa was quoted in The Irish Times as saying that all Charlie McCreevy gave poor people was “a kick in the arse”.

I think Pronsias DeRossa’s comments were totally and utterly disgraceful, completely outrageous. Never before when we’ve appointed people to the European Parliament have we had politicians from the same country adopting such a vicious tone. Generally speaking, we would support that person no matter what their political allegiance. And also, in my view, it reflects the kind of knee-jerk consensus that there is on the left in Ireland today.
In fact, McCreevy has a very balanced record; he adopted a very pragmatic approach to economic management over the past seven years. Indeed, I would say that a lot of people who are right wing would be quite disappointed with McCreevy, in that he was very much more pragmatic as opposed to ideological in his budgetary choices. McCreevy was in a position unique for an Irish Finance Minister, in that he was able to cut taxes and increase spending. I mean, the increases in child benefit, for instance, are never cited by DeRossa and the critics, even though they represented a very significant return to people on low incomes.

There would have been a reshuffle irrespective of McCreevy’s departure. Do you think that now is an especially important time for Fianna Fail to try and rejuvenate itself?
Yeah, I think Bertie Ahern has the bit between his teeth now. He recognises that we need to significantly shift and freshen up our ministerial line-up if we’re to win the next election. I mean, whether we like it or not, there is a showbiz quality to politics, and people like to see new faces coming forward. It’s similar to a football team or any other organisation in that respect. But it’s important that it’s not just the presentation that’s addressed, but the underlying policies.

Are you hoping to secure a junior minister post yourself?
I’d like to think that the Taoiseach would include me in his line-up somewhere, but at the end of day that’s a matter for him, and I don’t really have any influence over it. I mean, he plays his cards close to his chest, so I’m not really privy to his thinking in that regard.

A lot has been made of the electoral successes of Sinn Fein. Is the nightmare scenario for Fianna Fail a situation where they end up as prospective coalition partners?
I wouldn’t tend to use the language “nightmare scenario”, because I think that implies that Sinn Fein have serious policies in the economic and social areas. The evidence to date is that they don’t have a highly developed set of economic goals. I think until they have that sort of platform, it’s virtually impossible to analyse whether they’d be a force for good or a force for evil in terms of the management of the economy. And I think that before they can go into government, they still have acts of completion and things to finish with regard to the Peace Process, and until they honour those obligations they won’t be allowed into government by any of the parties in Leinster House.
But I do think the period of what I would call scare-mongering about Sinn Fein is over. I don’t think it’s positive for Fianna Fail or any other establishment-minded parties to be seen, symbolically or otherwise, to be having a go at Sinn Fein; I think that only adds to their appeal. And I also feel it belies the reality that after the local and European elections, one thing you can be certain about is that Sinn Fein have the potential to hold the balance of power after the next general election. That’s something people have to focus on now: how and in what circumstance will they be admitted to power in the Republic.
Would you say you’re impressed with the way Sinn Fein organise themselves on the ground?
Yes, I have Sinn Fein’s Sean Crowe in my own constituency, who always runs a very strong campaign, and I have to say I’ve got on very well with him. I think all of the political parties, Fianna Fail especially, have a lot to learn from the way Sinn Fein organise themselves.
One particularly positive element of Sinn Fein’s rise is that in areas of very low voter turn-out, they’ve managed to re-engage people with the political process, and that again is a lesson to political parties occupying the centre ground. I think the parties of the centre in Ireland - broadly encompassing Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour - have become somewhat out of touch with life as its lived in disadvantaged areas. And I think that we ignore those constituencies at our peril.
Kevin Myers was critical of Albert Reynolds in The Irish Times recently for speaking at Joe Cahill’s funeral. Do you think he had a valid point?
Well, Kevin Myers has a particular viewpoint – and I respect his viewpoint, to be honest with you; I know him quite well as a journalist and as a person – and he has a very consistent position of antipathy and opposition to Republicanism of the violent kind. I suppose it’s a fair point from his perspective to criticise Albert Reynolds in that fashion, but at the end of the day, Albert Reynolds was a key player in the peace process. He negotiated with the late Joe Cahill, and actually one of the most significant things that happened in the Peace Process – and I actually remember this as a reporter – was the announcement that Joe Cahill was being given the visa to travel to the United States.
You know, I think the days of people moralising about people associating with Sinn Fein and the IRA are largely over. It’s just a bit dated at this stage, because as much as Joe Cahill and other people were involved with indiscriminate car bombings and other such awful stuff through out the 70s, it seems to me that the Republican movement is now seeking to get beyond that, and play a more positive role in the politics of Northern Ireland.

In a speech you gave back in 1996, you were hugely sceptical about the benefits of going into coalition with the PDs. Have your fears been realised, particularly since the 2002 general election?
I’d have always been a critic of us forming a government with the Progressive Democrats, even as far back as ‘96. Mainly because they are an ideologically right-wing party, and we’re not that; we’re a party with a strong social democratic ethos, and a Republican edge as well. So from those points of view, I would have had concerns. But I have to say that in the mean-time, in the seven years that we have shared government with the PDs, we have had a good government. Who in 1997 could have predicted the huge drop in unemployment that we’ve seen in this country? Back then in my own constituency, Tallaght, there was 15% unemployment; now it’s somewhere below the national average of 5%.
Literally, back then, you could go out canvassing in the area during the afternoon and there would be plenty of people at home ready to welcome you, whereas now if you go out there during the daytime there’s virtually nobody in, because everybody is out working. So, I think the huge decreases in personal and corporation taxes have a had a very good impact from that point of view. Which isn’t to say there still aren’t problems in some of the highly disadvantaged areas of these constituencies – caused by a very small number of people engaged in extremely dangerous anti-social behaviour, I have to stress – but I really feel that overall the economic policies introduced by the current coalition have been very good for the country.
You have said that you view yourself as being “on the left wing of Fianna Fail”. Do you think the increasing drift to the centre of all of the mainstream parties in Ireland is really a positive development?
I think the growing consensus between the three major parties, FF, FG and Labour, on the economy, on Northern Ireland, and the adoption of the partnership process, means that there’s not a lot of difference between the three parties when it comes to practically running the country. The result of that is that there has been a vacuum created on the left – I mean the Worker’s Party went of out business! And look at Democratic Left – Pat Rabbite and Pronsias DeRossa did something they said they would never do; they collapsed their tent and joined the Labour party. And they were a left-wing outfit very strongly aligned with Moscow and the Soviet set-up, but obviously after the Wall collapsed Pat and the boys had a re-think.
So there is a vacuum for a party of protest. I mean, you only need to go to the European continent and look at places like France, where the Fascist parties have replaced the Communist parties as a sort of lightning rod for protest and dissent in areas of disadvantage, where race has become an issue. Where we may be losing out is that we have not articulated our social-democratic vision in an appropriate way when in government. But I think that when in government you’re always going to pay a price, and Fianna Fail is now suffering to a certain extent because we’ve been in government for such a long period of time.
You’ve expressed support for the war in Iraq. Is that really congruent with a left-wing point of view?
Well, lots of left wing governments in Europe supported the war; I mean, there were only two governments who balked and didn’t support it, namely Germany and France. And a lot of people would suggest that their position was arrived at as a result of self-interest, because of trade and other relationships that existed with Iraq and the Arab world generally. And in the French case, I’d have a certain amount of sympathy, because they have a significant Islamic population within their own boundaries, so therefore they would have understandable concerns.
In the Irish case, I’m happy and comfortable with the position adopted by Bertie Ahern, which was to leave Shannon open, but not to approve of the war because it didn’t have a UN mandate.
Would you accept, though, that there was an implicit support of the war?
I think there was an implicit support of kinds, yes, that’s probably arguable. But also I think there was a recognition – and I think Bertie Ahern handled this masterfully, actually – that we have real economic interests as a country, and that we are highly dependent on inward US investment. We have trade, culture and deep bonds of friendship with the United States, going back to our own period of seeking independence, when American money basically provided the weaponry for us to liberate ourselves from the British. You can’t ignore these factors.
In an ideal world, statesmen would be able to overlook these things, and always choose the most idealistic path, the noble path of righteousness, as it were. However, the realpolitik of international affairs is that sometimes pragmatic stances have to be taken.
Mary O’Rourke has been very critical recently of Seamus Brennan’s handling of the break-up of Aer Rianta. Is he doing a good job with a difficult brief or is he making a lot of very bad decisions?
Well, I’m not my aunt’s keeper for starters, but I think she’s expressed understandable concerns about the whole issue, because she was a Minister responsible for that particular department. And I think at a wider level, there are concerns within the party about decisions being taken in relation to semi-state or state employees without the full process of consultation with the workers. I don’t think it’s a good idea to announce changes publicly without having properly dotted the i’s and crossed the t’s with the workers beforehand. I think that is a concern, and it’s something that has shown up in the election results as a vote loss, in terms of airport workers and Dublin Bus and Irish Rail employees, who are understandably hugely concerned about their future. I have to say that Minister Brennan is a very committed politician and is doing his best. But I think that with Aer Rianta, the business case has yet to be established, and certainly in the private sector, most companies would be very careful about changing the entire set-up of their business without a very clear plan as to how the new operation was going to work out.
Your father infamously became mired in controversy during his failed presidential bid in 1990. Was that a particularly stressful time for your family?
I suppose it was in a way, it was traumatic enough. It’s not nice to see your father humiliated in the way that he was during that campaign. But I suppose some of those things he brought upon himself. It was a very upsetting time, more for my mother than for myself. Looked at now, when we’re 14 years on from 1990, the issue itself was fairly trivial relative to what we’re reading about in the tribunals, and the scandals we’ve seen in various state institutions and so on. But that’s politics, it’s a rough business. I mean, they say it’s the only fully legal blood-sport left in the country! (laughs)
Do you think he was treated fairly by the press at the time?
I wouldn’t blame the media; really what happened here was a situation where an interview he gave to a student was used in a different form to which it had been intended. There were ethical issues involved for the person concerned, and I don’t think the press behaved in a way other than one would have expected them to.
When your father made the famous “on mature recollection” comment, was he having a genuine moment of insight or was he just attempting to cover his tracks?
My father was a very private man, particularly when it came to his political career. He believed very strongly in the notion – and I imagine he was right too – that he shouldn’t involve us in his public life. He took the distinction between his public and private lives very seriously. And also, he may have chosen not to speak to me as openly about these matters at the time, seeing as how I was working as a journalist.
But in relation to all of that, he had said two different things; one to the research student and one to the media. It was the sort of situation that even if it happened to a politician today, I don’t think you could get out of it very easily, because you have two different versions of the one event from the same person.
What did you make of Charlie Haughey’s behaviour during that time?
Well, sure you know Charlie. Charlie was preserving his own political career. He was faced with a very unenviable choice, whereby the Progressive Democrats were saying that if we didn’t get rid of Mr. Lenihan, he himself might be forced into a position where he would lose power. You know, it was a difficult situation. A very political situation as well.
How do you think history will judge Charlie Haughey?
I think Haughey was very good for this country, and bad for the political system. That’s the only balanced appraisal you can reach about him. The kind of damage he did to the political system we see now in the tribunals, we see in the lack of public respect for the political process. On the plus side, Haughey brought huge modernisation to the country and took some very courageous decisions. I mean, the Irish Financial Services Centre would not be there but for Mr. Haughey and Dermot Desmond.
He put that idea in a special manifesto document prior to the 1987 general election, which received no analysis from the political reporters at the time. But the fact is that the IFSC has created 15,000 jobs, and if you look at the kinds of jobs that are down at the IFSC, it’s mainly employing commerce graduates, people involved in banking, and it supports the professions and trades that go with a busy employment centre like that. Virtually every one of the skilled labourers working down there in that centre now, would have had to emigrate to England, America or Australia had the IFSC not been created here.
And, you know, that will stand to Haughey no matter what comes out in the tribunals about his past career.
You worked with Denis O’ Brien in Esat for a period of time. Were you at all surprised by revelations coming out of the Moriarty Tribunal?
Well, I suppose the awarding of the license had to be investigated. I worked with Digiphone after they were awarded the license; I wasn’t part of the bid team. I mean, it was a very lucrative license and the issue had to be addressed relative to the minister’s role in the affair. But I am sort of comforted by what I’ve read in these tribunals, because clearly the message has come from senior civil servants that the integrity of the awarding of the license doesn’t appear to have been compromised, whatever about the transactions with Lowry. Obviously it will be hugely costly from the State’s point of view if the license was found to have been tainted in some fashion; then people would come in seeking millions of pounds worth of compensation.
Speaking of tribunal reports, the first report from the Morris tribunal on Garda corruption in Donegal was published recently, and made for pretty grim reading. Were you shocked by the findings at all?
I don’t know if shocked is the right word. I think the force in Donegal appears to have had problems rather unique to itself. I mean, I think a lot of people would be critical of the Garda Siochana on a number of different levels. You know, in terms of their efficiency, or how they respond when people ring Garda stations in a distressed state and so on. But I don’t think we have a corrupt Garda force in this country.
Lots of forces around the world have been corrupted by drugs for instance, where drug money and drug barons have bought into the police and effectively corrupted them from top to bottom. You only have to look at some of the forces in the United States, where there have been allegations of Mafia connections and so on. I think we’ve been very lucky in Ireland in that regard.
I think it would be a mistake to have a knee-jerk response to the Morris tribunal – we have a good Garda force in my view, and Minister McDowell has a number of plans in the offing in order to improve matters further. Things could be worse.
You’re chairman of the FAI’s parliamentary support group. Are we going to qualify for the next World Cup?
That’s a pretty loaded question! Having Roy Keane back in the squad is a good start. Like most people, I was quite divided over the Saipan incident. I mean, letting your captain and best player leave on a flight home before the tournament has even begun is probably not the best move! I actually met Roy Keane last year at the Special Olympics and he was a very nice guy. Not a hail-fellow well-met, clap-you-on-the-back kind of person, but still very personable. And some friends of mine in Cork know him quite well; he does an awful lot of charity work down there that doesn’t necessarily always end up in the press.
But do we have the players otherwise?
What’s good is that the team is now playing a much more attractive brand of football. I mean, during the Charlton era we had a good, strong, aggressive team who had a wonderful never-say-die spirit, but let’s face it, the quality of football played in some of those matches was dire, and perhaps Eamon Dunphy was right when he said a lot of those players weren’t allowed to play the kind of creative football that their talents maybe merited. Brian Kerr is a friend of mine, but I think he’s doing very well so far. And when you combine the flair of players like Robbie Keane and Damien Duff with the traditional fighting qualities that you associate with Irish teams, I think we have an excellent chance of qualifying.
Finally, are Fianna Fail going to be in power after the next election?
I think we have a great chance of being re-elected in 2007. It really depends on how Bertie Ahern structures his government, and in particular structures the whole communications effort coming from that government. My argument would be that in the last two years we failed to sell what we were trying to do – which was quite positive by the way, in terms of paring back government spending – and people weren’t convinced by the signals they were getting from the administration in relation to economic management. But certainly if we can rectify that, I think we’re in with a great chance.