The Bertie Boy

Michael O’Higgins: You grew up in a working-class district of Dublin.

Bertie Ahern: My father and mother actually came from Cork. They moved to Drumcondra when they were very young and have lived there for the last sixty years. Drumcondra is a typical mixture; there’s a bit of middle-class, but basically a very working-class district. It hasn’t changed. All the houses are pre-1940. It’s still my favourite place in the country.

M O’H: Do you think working-class people have it better now than when you were growing up?

BA: There is no reason nowadays to be really poor. I remember when I was young I used to walk into town by Lr. Gardiner Street – I had friends in Sean McDermott Street and Dominic Street – and there is no comparison now. Some of the houses there are the best in the city. That is not to say there are not still problems. But if you relate them to the problems of the ’30s or the ’50s, or to the turn of the century when Joyce was writing, there is no real poverty there.

M O’H: Do you think the gardai had a better relationship with the community then?

BA: Definitely. I suppose I have been outspoken over the years about the gardai. In Drumcondra, everybody held the gardai in high regard. They were out walking around. They were well known. We have to get back to the situation where the bulk of our resources are spent on community policing, where gardai are moving around, talking to people and knowing what’s happening. The fact that crime peaked in 1983 I put down to the fact that from the mid-’70s, they were out of touch with what was happening.

M O’H: Do you think the work gardai have to put in at court is hampering their work?

BA: To some degree. The gardai say they could catch people but the evidence wouldn’t stand up in court. I am not fully convinced of that. Take for example the Dunnes: everyone said ‘ah we can’t catch them, we can’t catch them’. But when the minds of the people were put down to breaking the whole drug racket and other crimes they seemed to be connected with, it worked. There were a lot of very sinister gangs that operated in the ’70s. When I was speaking out against it at the time, everybody said I was imagining things. But when the gardai put their mind to it they are very successful in doing it. There’s still a long way to go but there are plenty of people capable of handling the problem.

M O’H: You once advocated gardai on the beat should have the power to box an offender’s ears for less serious offences.

BA: Yeah, I never withdrew that. I have no intention of dong so now. I remember being in discos in Drumcondra and Clontarf when Lugs Brannigan came in and he never arrested anybody – he never did. You respected the police. You didn’t have free legal aid or get some TD to raise it in the Dail. You were just glad to get out of the place and damned lucky to get home in one piece.

M O’H: Did you ever have any confrontations of this sort with the police?

BA: No. I was often – well I won’t say often, but certainly on a few occasions – in discotheques when the gardai came in. And they sorted things out. I remember being on a school committee – we had Skid Row on, raising money for the school hall. Someone was stabbed and a few people were beaten up. The following week we asked the guards to come up. There was a bit of a scuffle. They literally kicked the people who started it down Collins Avenue. In them days the guards didn’t have to stand there and take abuse or have people stealing cars to ram them. That’s something that wouldn’t have happened ten years ago, never mind then. I don’t think that it is right for the community that they should have to take it.

M O’H: You think they should be in a position where they could take people on?

BA: Yes. But you would have to have a code of practice to deal with situation where they went wrong. I am not into heavy gangs or anything else. But why should a guard have to do down to the end of the street and just stand there while a shower of brats hurl abuse at him when it is something that is not acceptable anywhere else in the world?

M O’H: So what’s your view of the ‘heavy gang’ that operated in the ’70s?

BA: Appalling. Appalling. If a person is taken in and beaten to get a confession, that’s the worst. It’s almost worse than what happens in Spain, where you’re taken in on remand and held for six months before the case comes up. What I said was a clip on the ear or a kick in the ass, and most of us over thirty would remember that happening. But the guards in Drumcondra were very careful not to hit kids over the head. Walk through the inner city now and even with kids from eight years up, there is no fear. I think that’s a very dangerous thing. Imagine how little respect the eight-year-old of today is going to have in ten years’ time.

M O’H: Would you be critical of the guards that were involved in the Shercock and Kerry babies cases?

BA: I would be very critical of a lot of things that happened in those cases. You have to be concerned when people seem to think the main thing is to get a conviction. But a person like Lugs Brannigan or the kind of guard in operation ten years ago, didn’t have the same type of pressures, having to go into court looking over his shoulder. Because of that they had a far higher respect from the community. And that’s the battle the guards have to win now.

M O’H: Was it unusual for someone from your background to go on to third level?

BA: No. There was always a fair few that went on. I never had the money to go full-time. I worked and studied at the same time.

M O’H: Did you enjoy studying?

BA: I did. Even though I was part-time I was very much part of the scene. There’s a huge difference now. It’s such a conservative place. People are just so concerned about the future, compared to the ’60s or early ’70s. When I was there, if you came out with a degree, or even if you failed and had a few years at it, everyone got jobs. Now it’s all pressure. No matter how good you are it’s extremely difficult to get a job.

M O’H: Did you take part in what has been called the ‘gentle’ revolution?

BA: Not really. I was involved in the L and H and was active in the debates. There were people like Conor Cruise O’Brien, Dick Burke. During the outbreak of the troubles and the civil rights marches we had all the Northern debates and people like Seamus Mallon and John Hume coming down. I really loved those. Maybe I am biased, but I don’t think the debates now are nearly as good. Conor Cruise O’Brien, regardless of how much I differ with him politically, was extremely good.

M O’H: Did different mores prevail?

BA: Well, for instance, the strongest drugs I ever saw were LSD or maybe marijuana. It obviously had a bit of the San Francisco flowers in your hair mid-’60s aura about it. It’s almost laughable when you think about it now. Recently I was looking up something about the ’69 elections and I was reading about the disgraceful robberies in dispensaries where they used to leave drugs overnight in a wooden box! That’s how restrained the whole thing was then. Now they can’t even secure them in hospitals.

M O’H: Did you try anything yourself?

BA: Never. The reason probably was that I was so interested in sport. I was totally committed.

M O’H: How did your entry into politics come about?

BA: Everyone in the house was interested in politics. My father was an old IRA man, though never supported FF.

M O’H: You were in Charlie Haughey’s constituency. Did he have a lot of influence on you?

BA: Yes. He was Minister for Finance, Colley was the other TD in the area. They were the big guys in FF then, I was very interested in the Northern thing, and Haughey’s reading of it. I would have taken the Haughey line in ’69.

M O’H: What did you think of the subsequent arms trial?

BA: I supported Haughey regardless of whether he was right or wrong (laughs). I was only 17 at the time – I never reached the stage where I know all the ins and outs – as far as I was concerned he was right. I was delighted. My brother was married in the North in August ’69 during the week of the Bombay Street burnings. I was on Bombay Street and saw all the homes burnt out. I just felt embittered. Haughey was accused of assisting the Northern groups in some way or another. We were the Catholic people. We claimed jurisdiction over the North – he wouldn’t have been doing his job if he didn’t do something. Now I am not talking about putting up money for arms: he was acquitted of that.

M O’H: Would it not be ironic if a member of the government had provided the money for the setting up of the Provos?

BA: That’s a different thing He was acquitted of that charge. His involvement was to try and help and not to sit back and do nothing. I admired that at the time. There was no IRA. Where were they in ’68? It was very much the Northern Resistance Movement and the Civil Rights groups. I mean John Hume spent almost all of ’69 down at the barricades of Free Derry. I spoke to him several times about it and he told me al the nights he was down there, ready to defend the green – and he wasn’t there to defend with his mouth as he has done very successfully since (laughs). He wasn’t behind the barricades to go and talk to them. He was actively involved. I can’t remember whether he actually told me he was throwing things, but he was actively involved.

M O’H: How do you get on with Charlie Haughey?

BA: For one reason or another, you are liked or disliked. If you don’t get on well with Haughey, you’ll know and he’ll know. If you get on well with him, well, he’s a very good person. He’s straight. I have served under him in difficult times and difficult circumstances. Crises. Several crises (laughs). I was probably closer than most people to him. He is just a fantastic worker. He’s phenomenally hard-working, from early morning to late at night. He never asks anyone to do anything he wouldn’t do himself. He had tremendous style. I’m a great believe in him. He is prepared to take risks. If Haughey thinks it’s a good idea, he’ll stand on his head, he’ll stand the system on its head, to get that to work. If he thinks it’s a lot of nonsense, then you’ll go out the door knowing that. I think that’s a good way to be.

M O’H: Have you learned much from Charlie Haughey?

BA: I have learned an awful lot. I wish I had his ability. I don’t think many people in the country have. His means of working is to cut out the nonsense, get on with the job and use the position that you have to the full. I certainly, if not copied, picked up a lot in that I try and approach things in a similarly efficient way.

M O’H: What other politicians do you most admire?

BA: I admire Ruairi Quinn. I think he gets on with the job. He isn’t full of nonsense. He’s upfront. I mean, he is on a dodgy seat. It would be easy for him to do nothing. In Fine Gael I have a lot of admiration for Michael Keating – although he’s no longer in Fine Gael! I’d have to say none of the other Labour ministers are much good.

M O’H: Is there anybody you wouldn’t have much time for?

BA: I think Barry Desmond is cold and heartless. He never really wants to understand the problems in hospitals. I’d be indifferent about a lot of them. I admire someone like Tony Gregory who succeeds in getting into the Dail against the odds. He has big organisational problems. It isn’t like me, where people will vote Fianna Fail, because it’s Fianna Fail and not Bertie Ahern. It’s very hard to be an Independent. He’s a good worker. And he works for people who need help, a lot of them don’t vote. It’s the bullshitters I don’t like.

M O’H: Who are they?

BA: It wouldn’t be fair to name them.

M O’H: Was Dessie O’Malley not a big loss to the party?

BA: Yes. Dessie was certainly very capable. I got on very well with Dessie. But then again he wasn’t prepared to take the party line on lots of issues. I like a person who says: "I find it very hard to support the party, this is a matter of principle". But when somebody starts saying that about the weather, then you start wondering "is this the political party for that person?" And he was against the line on lots of issues.

M O’H: How does politics affect your family life?

BA: I have an advantage in that my wife is very involved. She’s in the local cumann. But it’s definitely tough. There’s no way that I could say yes if my wife rang me now and said "Listen, I’d like to go out for a few drinks tonight". I’m rarely able to go out on Saturdays – Saturday is my busy day. I literally leave the house at nine o’clock and wouldn’t get home till seven or eight and probably end up having a few jars in the immediate area. About a year and a half ago, I started staying home on Sundays. I barred going to Croke or anything like that, for something very important: I stay at home. My two kids are six and four, so it is very important.

M O’H: Does the fact that you are often away create friction?

BA: No. Everyone has the odd argument. Miriam is very understanding. But I’d have to say when I was whip I got a lot of invitations with the leader of the Party to State functions, in the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham and things which another person in the party wouldn’t get.

M O’H: There must be a lot of alcohol at these kind of things?

BA: I have a rule that I only drink one type of drink. I drink Bass. I enjoy a drink. As a rule I don’t drink too late at night. I rarely drink during the daytime except if there is something on. If there is Bass around, I’m immune to the bloody stuff regardless of the breathaliser. I enjoy a few jars.

M O’H: How m any pints do you reckon you could drink and be able to drive?

BA: (laughs) You’ll have them waiting outside for me. I could certainly drink a fair few pints of Bass and be capable of driving. Whether I’d pass the breathalyser or not is another thing it would be very hard to get me drunk on it.

M O’H: You could drink a gallon of it anyway?

BA: (Pause) Yeah. I wouldn’t fancy them breathalysing me, but I could certainly walk the straight line after the gallon (laughs), whatever about driving. A few of my colleagues have been breathalysed outside here (the Dail) recently.

M O’H: Did it turn the wrong colour?

BA: No. Liam Skelly there recently thought he was being blackguard. It’s worrying when that happens, especially when you realise you’ve also been very critical of the gardai. They’ve called to me in my home a number of times asking me to substantiate things I’ve said.

M O’H: Have they put pressure on?

BA: Mild pressure. For a week after, you’re kind of careful how many pints or glasses you drink. It crosses your mind, yeah. Because when you get very senior guards appearing on your doorstep – it’s really intimidating, knowing they have come back to me several times.

M O’H: How senior were the guards and why did they call?

BA: I would have made statements on things that bordered on very closed issues, which they would know all about. They’d come up and ask you about it I’d have used information I’d have got from prison officers or guards. I’d say what you say in your job – I just heard it. I can’t substantiate it. How can you do it? Substantiate it and get some poor guy thrown out? I have had very senior guards. Everyone except the Commissioner.

M O’H: The Assistant Commissioner has called out then?

BA: Well, I have had a few superintendents and inspectors. It’s nice to know that they are watching the house (laughs). They’re usually looking for where you got your information from. ‘We don’t know anything about that’ – they probably have the file in the car. I remember cases where people have been beaten up – if I think it’s wrong, I’ll go after them. If it’s an inner city family, I would feel it’s my obligation to go into something like this. But I get on very well with the individual guards. I have great admiration for the individual guard. My argument is with the top and the administration of the Department of Justice.

M O’H: Any unfulfilled ambitions outside politics?

BA: I was sorry when I was elected in ’77 that the ol’ football career ended. I was playing extremely good soccer then and I neglected it over the next four or five years and missed out on a few medals. I literally love football. I wish I could give more time to sport. We spend so much money on medicine for finding cures for sick people and nothing on prevention. And one of the best types of prevention is sport. And we spend buttons on it. If I was ever at the cabinet table, that’s one of the things I would argue for.

M O’H: How do you feel about couples who live together outside marriage?

BA: Well, I would rather see marriages. But I know loads of people who are just ‘shackin’ up’. I’ll tell you this, if the referendum is passed, it won’t make much difference to them.

M O’H: How would you feel if in later years your own children decided to live with someone?

BA: I wouldn’t particularly agree with it, to be honest with you.

M O’H: Would you fall out with them?

BA: I have two experiences close to me, involving young people – people who are very close to me who are living together – and I’d have to say it hasn’t done them any harm. I think they will end up married. They haven’t done any of the mad things people say you are going to do. It’s very easy to be critical. You can put your view to people and try and explain what’s right or wrong, but I’d be very slow to go out and criticise people.

M O’H: How do you feel about homosexuality?

BA: Not a lot. I can’t say I have met any homosexuals. But again I wouldn’t

M O’H: Would you be in favour of it being decriminalised?

BA: I never really followed the case in any detail. I don’t know. I don’t know any people in that position. I have never argued the case, but I know they can answer very well because David Norris is very active in the community, within the constituency. But if somebody was to come forward to me and explain that they are homosexual and that’s the way they are, I would certainly listen to them.

M O’H: Do you think it is wrong, that it is a crime for homosexuals to express their sexuality?

BA: It’s like a lot of Irish crimes – is it a crime? Does anyone go near them?

M O’H: Would you be in favour of taking it off the books?

BA: If I thought something was unfair or very much against a section of the community and there was merit in its removal, that didn’t destabilise a whole lot of other things, I would certainly look at it.

M O’H: Do you think that it might destabilise things?

BA: I think there is always that danger. Isn’t that the whole principle in the Divorce Referendum? People are saying if the yes’s win, you are going to have a whole load of de-stabilised marriages, which I don’t believe.

M O’H: But surely if people are gay and their situation is made legal, it’s not going to destabilise anything.

BA: It’s something I am not well read on. I’ll admit to a large degree of ignorance. As a politician in the inner city, no one ever came to me from the gay community. Every other group has. I haven’t had the gays or the lesbians yet. I would have an open mind.

M O’H: Where will you go for holidays this year?

BA: Kerry. Dingle Peninsula. We take a house there every year.

M O’H: You are not one for going abroad?

BA: No. But I have to confess I was down in Australia for three weeks with a parliamentary group. It was fantastic. It was paid for almost totally by the Aussies. It cost the Irish government a few hundred. It was the first ever parliamentary group in Australia. We faced a lot of competition here as to who went.

M O’H: Who decided who went?

BA: The Party leaders picked the people.

M O’H: You must have been very good to Charlie the previous month.

BA: I organised a lot of party meetings around the country. I did them nearly every Friday night. I did those all winter… It was hard going. We did a fierce amount of flying, which was murder. I came back all in one go: forty hours with one stop. It was the night of the bombings in Libya. I was afraid of my life (laughs). I was on my own. I came back early because the Ard Fheis was on. Everyone on the plane was foreign so I didn’t talk to anyone.

M O’H: What do you think of Ireland doing business with Libya?

BA: I tell you, to be quite honest with you, with unemployment in my constituency at 50%, I would agree with Gadhaffi if I thought it would bring in jobs. (laughs). One of the advantages of being a neutral country is that we should be free to trade. I mean I wouldn't support trading with South Africa, where there are civil liberties being taken away. But I think we should try and trade with Libya. There's a huge market there. There's a huge market there. There's no doubt t at all. I was there with Charlie on the cattle deal a couple of year's back.

M O’H: Did you meet Gadhaffi personally?

BA: Yeah. I was in his tent.

M O’H: How did you find him?

BA: He's a real revolutionary. We were at his Ard Fheis (laughs). We went to the party congress.

M O’H: You must be one of the few people in Ireland who has met Colonel Ghadaffi.

BA: There's probably about ten in the country. I am certainly one of the few who met him in the tent. That was unique. Out in the middle of the wood!

What do you think of people on the dole who are also working as well?

I don't think it's a big problem. If a fellow gets about £60 per week assistance and he gets a job painting a house, until I see proper taxation right across the board for speculators, be it investment or property people and all the other fiddles that are within the tax system here. I would put these guys at the back of the list. People always talking about the he fiddles in |Social Welfare – what about the fiddles in the Finance Bill? Go to Geneva or the Isle of Man and see the number of Irish people, tax experts, representing accountancy firms involved in a he way in tax-dodging. I think you should worry about them first and not be worrying about the poor ol' guy in the inner city painting the houses. It's small money. There is nobody going around making hundreds of thousands on that. It's too easy to hit the guy who hasn't a bit of education or makes a stupid mistake.

M O’H: Do the Provos have a role in the North?

BA: Obviously there is a section of the nationalist community who look to Sinn Fein to represent them. They vote them in, but I am not one to support the armalite in one hand and the ballot box in another.

M O’H: Do you think that the Provos campaign has any validity?

BA: Well, certainly the cause they put forward, a United Ireland has validity, but the way of achieving that does not – by the bombing and shooting of innocent people. If they had carried out the campaign in a totally different way, I think they would command far more respect.

M O’H: You mean by being more selective in terms of 'legitimate' targets?

BA: Both sides, both the British Government and the Provisional IRA have said Northern Ireland is at war. I can never understand how blowing up, or shooting innocent people, and intimidating people, is part of that.

M O’H: What about shooting a British soldier?

BA: Well, I think violence is totally wrong. But if that was the only action they were involved in, in a war position they would have an argument. It's an argument certain people will vote for. It's not an argument I agree with.

M O’H: Do you think Lesbian/gay relations are 'unnatural'?

BA: Well I don't understand the law too well in this area. But I understand there is no law against lesbians, so I suppose you could argue there is an anomaly there.

M O’H: What about the relationship itself?

BA: No. If I was listening to people in that position, I would listen to their point of view. I would tend to say straight off that it's not a very natural thing, but if you were talking to a homosexual/lesbian and they were putting forward their views that their make up and metabolism is a different thing, you would have to listen to their point. As I say I have never had a representative from a group of them put forward their case. If there is no law on lesbians, I suppose homosexuals can question why should there be a law on the. I don't see the difference, why there should e a law on one and not on another?

M O’H: Do you think it's true that when politicians are legislating on a 'moral' issue like contraception, they preach one thing and practice another. Many politicians who use contraception would have voted against it for example.

BA: I don't know. But if a lot of people within society do, I can't see why politicians wouldn't.

M O’H: Politicians are different however in that they are making the laws. Do you use contraception within your own marriage?

BA: No. I don't actually. But I have nothing against it. That was a decision of my wife and myself. That's it. But I don't think politicians should go around making a law just because they do or don't. On a moral issue, politicians shouldn't dictate to people. People make up their own minds.

M O’H: I have an impression that you might be in favour of the introduction of Capital Punishment for murder?

BA: The sentences they are dishing out are fairly tough. 15-20 years. I tend to be a hard man on these things. I certainly would not like to see them get anything less.

M O’H: But you wouldn't be in favour of Capital Punishment?

BA: No. I think we are fairly tough here. I don't think we need to get into Malaysian law (laughs) – though you see how quick they solve things. I was over there recently. They don't stand on ceremony there. You'd worry about civil liberties when it goes that far. It shows up when you see the situation there, as against ourselves and the Isle of Man. I was over there too and studied the whole system in great detail for the Crime Committee. It's very, very interesting.

M O’H: The Isle Of Man brings up the question of birching. Would it be a good idea to introduce that here?

BA: It's actually gone now. They haven't used it in years. No – if somebody is wrongly dealt with through the courts and a mistake is made, there is an appeal next month. They haven't suffered. But with birching you can't go back and take away the scars. I said back in '83 the solution lay in the guards and if the courts didn't get their act together, the people were going to do it themselves. The situation has already improved with the community watch scheme. It is quite effective.

M O’H: Do you have an interest in music?

BA: Music? Yeah. My favourite was Leonard Cohen. I liked particular songs by The Beatles and The Stones. But my favourite singer still is Leonard Cohen.

M O’H: Do you find his themes very depressing?

BA: He is, yes. I can tell you when you come home after a day in politics you don't feel too gay (laughs). The happiness is gone out of you. I enjoy music where it is not a great strain on the ears to hear the words.