Shooting from the lip

There is a distinct possibility that the next Taoiseach and Tánaiste will both hail from Mayo. At the moment, Enda Kenny is the bookies favourite to oust Bertie from the top job and, if this happens, Pat Rabbitte, who was born in Claremorris, will be the first Labour Tánaiste since Dick Spring.

The Dublin South West TD has been described as an extremely good performer in the Dáil. But his wit is matched by a vast wealth of political experience, which includes a cabinet position in the last rainbow government, as well as a period of leadership in the now defunct Democratic Left party.
In fact, Rabbitte has been involved in politics since his university days and moments before this interview begins, he talks glowingly about his former student friend (and Hot Press writer), Bill Graham, who sadly passed away eleven years ago. “Is it that long since Bill died?” Rabbitte says. “He was a very good friend of mine. A marvellous writer. I have very fond memories of him...”
Labour and Fine Gael have enjoyed a substantial surge in the opinion polls since their ‘Mullingar Accord’, which aims to offer the Irish electorate an alternative government. But even if Enda Kenny fails in his efforts to become the first Fine Gael Taoiseach in over a decade, there is still a distinct possibility that Labour might pull the “rabbitte” out of the proverbial hat, by going into coalition with Fianna Fail.
Badgered about the prospect, during the course of this Hot Press interview, Rabbitte remains adamant that he is committed to going into coalition with Fine Gael.
When pushed on which cabinet positions Labour will be allocated, the 58-year-old TD responded that the “business of portfolios has not been discussed”. Three days after this interview was conducted, I was introduced to Liz McManus, the deputy leader of the Labour party, at a social function. During our brief conversation, McManus revealed that Rabbitte had recently visited her home and asked if she would accept the Minister for Health position.
The comforting thing is that it’s a job she’d be well suited to…

Jason O’Toole: If Labour and Fine Gael are successful, you’ll be Táiniste soon.
Pat Rabbitte: If I get more seats than Fine Gael, I will be the candidate for Taoiseach! If I don’t, I think it is an unwritten understanding (about becoming Tánaiste).
Have you discussed ministerial positions?
You have never met a party leader, who is willing to discuss that until the election is over. I certainly don’t want to get into the business of counting my chickens before they’re hatched. You have to win the election first. But I suppose I would look at Health and Finance.
The Irish Times seem to think that you are taking a big chance by making happiness an election issue.
A party with limited financial resources is wasting its time publishing a conventional political poster. So you have to do something quirkier. I think we plugged into something that says, ‘OK, we are a relatively wealthy country now, but are you happy with the state of the health services? Are you happy that people on middling, decent income can’t get a mortgage? Are you happy that your mother can’t get a hospital bed when she needs one? Are you happy that you can’t get a Gardai when you are in distress? Are you happy that we live in a country that expects women to go out and work but we have no infrastructure of childcare?’
A census carried out by US polling expert Frank Luntz revealed that voters found your “but, are you happy?” slogan to be boring and lacking impact.
If you have the budget of Diageo – great. If you don’t, you have to do something that seeks to be a bit different. Obviously, Luntz’s conclusions were reasonably positive for us but, if he says that, you certainly have to weigh it in the balance.
Will Ireland be happier with a Labour/FG coalition?
I am absolutely certain that people want change. What shape will that alternative government be? Will it comprise more than Labour/Fine Gael? I don’t know.
Will you go into coalition with Sinn Fein?
Sinn Fein have a bit to travel yet before they will find themselves in government down here. I think you are more likely to have an attempt by Fianna Fail to create a minority government where they would be reliant on Sinn Fein from outside. Sinn Fein have been single-mindedly focused on the national question. It is very easy to say, ‘We are in favour of better hospitals. We are in favour of clean water. And we are in favour of everybody going to mass on Sunday’. But how are you going to pay for it? Have they finessed policies on the economy? Housing? Health? Social Welfare? I don’t see them.
What if FG, Labour and SF can make up the numbers when no other combination of three could?
No. Not at this time.
If they’re suitable to take up ministries in the North, why not down south?
The architecture of Northern Ireland was deliberately created for a conflictual society, and where government is only viable on a cross-community basis. Down here, no party can be first to go into government with another party if the other party doesn’t want it. This is a normal democracy. Northern Ireland is a society coming out of conflict and division.
Why FG rather than FF, which many would argue is the natural partner for Labour?
I think Labour would have most clout in government with Fine Gael. What people are saying to us is that they want Fianna Fáil put into opposition. I think for us to purport to be dissatisfied with the policies Fianna Fáil have pursued – on things like childcare and hospitals and on public housing provision – and then say we are going to put them back into office is not consistent.
Would Labour decide that FF without Bertie Ahern as leader would be enough of a compromise in the case of a hung Dáil – rather than having to return again to the people?
I have avoided getting into speculation about what happens after the people have voted. I am the architect of the fact that there is an alternative government on offer and I am committed to that.
What about the possibility of Fianna Fáil going into coalition with Fine Gael?
I would be very happy to see Fine Gael go into government with Fianna Fáil. I think the Labour Party would grow in those circumstances. But the stark facts are that it is not likely to happen.
Are you for or against ASBOS?
I have seen in my own constituency the difference when a ringleader of a group of youths – creating mayhem and generating anti-social activity – is taken out of the scene (pauses)...you can tell in some of the communities I represent that when a particular young fella, who is leading the mayhem, comes back from St Pat’s, or wherever, into the community and starts up the bushfire again. I have constituents that are besieged in their own homes by anti-social behaviour. Now, there are a great many limbs to addressing the issue of anti-social behaviour, including addressing the inequality in some of these communities, in terms of dealing with early school dropout. But I wouldn’t absolutely rule out resorting to ASBOS in the sense of targeting some of the ringleaders of the anti-social behaviour.
Are you for mandatory sentences in the way they have been introduced by Michael McDowell?
No, I am not. I think it is populism, designed to appeal to a section of the electorate. Judicial discretion by and large has served us well. No two cases are the same and I would be very reluctant to support mandatory sentences.
Do you think that Enda Kenny’s presidential style is hopelessly transparent?
(Heartily laughs). I wonder is it a presidential style? I wonder if that is not where Frank Luntz (who is working with Fine Gael) is misdirected himself. I think in Ireland, uniquely, with multi seat constituencies, we have 43 mini general elections. Comparing it to the United States or Britain (pauses)... I am not sure that Irish politics has that presidential style, although Fianna Fail has tended in the recent past to do that with Bertie.
Some people are saying Enda has created a new persona, perhaps modelled on JFK...
I hadn’t thought about it in that way, but it is interesting. Well, he has certainly got a new haircut. I prefer the old haircut! Enda Kenny is an honest politician. I wouldn’t diminish the significance of that. He is also an immensely experienced politician.
Does all that exaggerated talk of law and order on Enda Kenny’s part not sit very uneasily with Labour’s remit to stand up for the disadvantaged?
Anti-social behaviour and crime driven by the drugs menace impacts most on the Labour heartland. Any Labour leader that doesn’t acknowledge that misunderstands the views of ordinary people. The perception of the Irish Labour party being soft on crime is wrong. That’s not to say that I agree with the priority that Fine Gael seems to give to this issue. But I acknowledge that some parts of my own constituency – and it is the same in every city and town in Ireland – there are people living in areas of a lower socio-economic stature that suffer most from anti-social behaviour.
Would you charge fees for third level education?
No.
Was Niamh Breathnach’s decision to abandon fees not one that favoured the relatively privileged over those struggling to make any sense of primary education?
No, I don’t agree. If you look at participation rates since then – people from lower socio economic groups have had their participation in third level education greatly enhanced. If you look at my own constituency, that has been the case. The re-introduction of fees would be a barrier to continuing in education for a lot of young people. It is true that there are some families, who can well afford to send their children to third level education – but Labour sees the access to education as a universal principle, and the tax system is there to claw back their contribution to society from people who are very wealthy.
What would you do about the provision of education for autistic children?
It is something that our spokesperson (for education) is working on. We have looked at it because autistic children are a category of citizen whose needs our society badly under-provides. In fact, the very last day the Dáil sat, I raised this issue on behalf of 64 parents in Louth/Meath. I would have to take advice on that.
Are you in favour of random drugs testing in schools?
I am not amorous with the idea. I am not sure that it is a desirable thing to impose on the school systems.
In both entertainment and sport, ticket touting is a major problem at the moment. What would you do to combat it?
Many years ago I introduced a ticket touting bill in the Dáil – first time it was ever done. It was debated and voted down by government. It would have made it an offence to sell a ticket for greater than the face value and, I think, it had certain merit. The principle is the same today. I would be glad to look at it again.
What do you think of Bono?
Bono is the leader in the new pride Irish people feel in their Irishness. The stature he has achieved in music internationally brings kudos to the country. The achievement of U2 is a phenomenal one. I know their manager, Paul McGuinness, better than I know themselves. It really is a most remarkable achievement. I think, as well, the fact that he has followed the lead given by Geldof in terms of making world poverty an issue with the leaders of the western world is very useful.
A lot of people seem to be cynical about that…
I realise that are some people are cynical about it, but there are some people cynical about everything. I say fair play to him.
What is your response to his criticism of Ireland’s failure to meet its target on aid for developing nations?
The Labour Party has been involved in that criticism, because at a time of tremendous economic growth, we should be giving a lead in terms of the needs of the world’s poor. I think it is one of the distinct differences from the PDs being in government as against Labour. Labour would have insisted progressively meeting that target of .7%. This present government has let it slide. When you take into account that the Taoiseach campaigned internationally for a seat on the United Nations – blatantly committing to implementing the 0.7% target in return for getting votes for our seat in the United Nations – I think it has damaged our reputation.
Are you saying unequivocally that you’d meet the .7% of GNP target?
Yes, we will be committing to that in our manifesto.
What do you really think of Bertie?
(Laughs hysterically). I think if he fell off the top of Liberty Hall he would land on his feet! I think he has destroyed the normal theatre that is Dáil politics because he has sought to embrace everyone and every view. It is impossible to have an argument with him. He is not a man who believes in anything. He has brought a wet blanket down on proceedings in the Dáil. But, having said that, he is a lucky general, very fortunate to come into government in ‘97, to inherit an economy on the cusp of a boom from Ruairi Quinn, the Labour Finance Minister, (and) to be in government for a time of unprecedented economic growth.
But what do you make of the corruption allegations he has faced?
After the experience of ‘Bertie-Gate’ last autumn, I am reluctant to be dragged into the sleaze allegations that surround Mr Ahern. For merely doing one’s parliamentary duty last autumn, Mr Ahern went up in the polls 5% and I came down 5%. It would appear that the Irish people have a very tolerant view. He doesn’t believe in anything. He has no strong convections about anything. But he does have a determination to stay in power and he will do business with anyone in order to. I think that he is gifted with an ordinary man’s demeanour but, in fact, he is quite ego-driven.
After your tax cut proposal Michael McDowell said: “He has been talking rubbish for 20 years. He has attacked every aspect of our tax policies. He’s voted against them in every Finance Bill. He has denied our argument that tax rates matter. And here he is now saying, after 20 years of empty unsuccessful, hypocritical rhetoric, that he accepts he is wrong. What a sad moment for him.”
My policies threw a spanner in the works of what Michael McDowell was planning. You wouldn’t be human if you didn’t take some satisfaction in the sight of Michael McDowell red-faced, right up to his hairline, fulminating against my speech to the party conference. And then trying to outbid it a week later. He’d better enjoy the couple of weeks that he has left to him because he won’t be Tánaiste again. In fact, I think Joe Higgins could come back into the next Dáil with more TDs than Michael McDowell.
Would a Labour-FG government stop the US military using Shannon airport?
We would be opposed to the use of Shannon by anybody to wage war outside of international law and outside a mandate from the United Nations.
Has the Irish government put its citizens at risk to possible terrorist attacks by allowing the usage of Shannon for military purposes?
I don’t think it is my job, as leader of the opposition, to create alarm about that – but it is very, very difficult to understand why the present government wouldn’t insist on inspections. I don’t think it’s naivety – I think Mr Ahern signed on for the Bush position from the very outset.
Let’s look at your election promises. First, did you have to get the nod of approval from FG?
No. The five points we have published are the minimum for Labour to implement in government. We want more beds in clean hospitals, pre-school education, more community Gardaí on the beat in neighbourhoods. There has never been any doubt that the Labour Party will campaign as the Labour Party on its own manifestos. We will have agreed major areas of policies with Fine Gael but the two parties sit down after the election to agree a programme for government.
Have you ever broken any laws?
I am afraid I have parked on the occasional double yellow line. I have drunk the occasional pint of Guinness after closing time. And I am not sure that I have always stayed within the speed limit.
Have you ever stolen anything?
No (laughs), I have never stolen anything...
What do you think of the Gardai setting up speed checks on the Naas Road or the Donnybrook dual carriageway?
I think some of it is shooting fish in the barrel syndrome. I don’t think it is where dangerous driving is at. I don’t want to communicate the notion that I would, as Minister for Justice, seek to politically direct the daily operations of the Gardaí Síochana. I would, however, want to see a programme of reform in the Gardaí – better management, better deployment of resources, a Garda Authority to provide for civilian oversight of policing.
What do you think of the clampers do-ing people on suburban roads, in places like Ranelagh, at quarter to midnight on a Thursday night? Do you think this a sneaky way of extracting extra revenue from people?
I do. It is impossible to give expression to everything in law. There has to be a test of what does a reasonable person consider acceptable. There are excesses.
What about the campaign of harassment being waged by Gardai in relation to people who legitimately under the law have a drink, or maybe two with a meal, and find themselves being treated as if they are criminals?
I am opposed to the shooting fish in the barrel syndrome. The reality is that we are rapidly heading towards a situation where you can’t drink at all and drive. That presumes an adequate infrastructure of public transport, provision of taxis and all that kind of thing (because) there is no doubt about it, it does hit rural people particularly badly.
Should arming the Gardaí be seriously considered?
I think one of the great strengths of the Garda Síochána is that it is an unarmed force. I think it is important that this is maintained. No doubt about it, we do have a more demanding police order situation. We have serious anti-social activity and we need to adapt our policing to the changing nature of our society. But I wouldn’t come down in favour of arming the police.
Should same sex marriages be allowed in Ireland? It is being suggested that Labour have failed to propose full equality for same sex couples...
I read that and it is complete bullshit. For the first time in the history of the Dáil, a civil partnership bill, written by Labour, was introduced in Dáil Eireann, that would confirm equal citizens rights on civil partnerships. If you are going for gay marriage, you have to go for a constitutional amendment. The first step should be to acknowledge that gay people are not second-class citizens and therefore they are as entitled to every legal and constitutional protection as any other citizen. If we were to run with a constitutional amendment before we prepare the law, in the way that we did in that bill, it would surely come unstuck. We have a lot of experience of this – we did it with divorce and we failed initially
The Labour Party’s ethos is: “Labour extends the same freedom to all members of society and opposes the victimisation of individuals on the basis of class, colour, creed, religion, sex, sexual orientation, race or ethnic origin.” As Táiniste, would you be willing to lobby for same sex marriages to be legalized in this State?
We have to judge the feasibility of having a constitutional amendment, as you suggest, down the line. But I am not against it – not at all.
What about gays adopting?
It is a very complex area of law. It (the Labour bill) would permit adoption in certain rigorous circumstances where, like any other adoption, the centre of concern has to be the child.
Are you religious?
No, not in the conventional sense. I would like to think that there is a code that I steer by. In this job you would find yourself at funerals and so on. The Church – like a number of other institutions that were unquestioned in the past in Irish society, like my own institution of politics, the institution of the Gardai – have taken quite a bashing and it has largely been undermined by its own hand.
Should abortion be legalized in Ireland?
About four years ago, Labour adopted a fairly major policy document, which was the subject of a lot of work by the party, on this issue. They took a lot of evidence, they got advice by a lot of professionals on it, and that remains our policy decision – essentially, legislating for the Supreme Court judgement in the ‘X’ case. It’s not something that I have, or the party, has discussed with Fine Gael.
Would you agree that Mary Harney’s tenure as Minister for Health has been a failure?
Indisputably. You have the crisis in accidents and emergency, you have the controversy about the children’s hospital, you have the nurses in dispute, you have the consultants’ contract not concluded after three years. You have her horribly misguided programme to build super private clinics on public land with the campuses of public hospitals, which will have a desperately adverse affect on the public health service. The state of the health service is the biggest issue in this election.
Do you think you could do a better job as Minister for Health?
I do. I would love to have the opportunity. You have to motivate the staff around a set of goals – goals that acknowledge that there is no solution to the accident and emergency crisis without the issue of capacity being addressed, which is why we have proposed an additional 2,300 beds. The provision of community beds and step down care is imperative if you are going to facilitate people who are inappropriately occupying beds in acute hospitals. You have to seek to make the hospitals work more than a four-and-a-half day week, which it is structured around at the moment. We have a comprehensive health plan published and we would love the opportunity to get on with it.
The FF government introduced a badly-funded music board that disappeared after three years. What will Labour and FG do to support Irish rock and pop music and its fans?
I think my answer to that is the last time Labour was in government we appointed a Minister for Culture – in that case it was Michael D. Higgins. I think you appoint a Minister, who has an appreciation of the value of culture in its broadest terms to Irish society and, indeed, as a barometer of our standing internationally. We would let him or her get on with dealing with what precisely should be done. I think Irish culture benefited greatly from that initiative. It was an innovation in government and I think Michael D. was peculiarly appropriate as a kind of pied piper of cultural activity in the country.
Do you have an iPod?
No, I don’t. I find that the number of communication influences coming at me all the time are such that I am glad to get the occasional bit of peace from the mobile telephone, never mind an iPod.
Have you ever bought an album online from CD wow?
No, but I must confess that I bought the occasional CD, to my regret, on O’Connell Street Bridge! In addition to that (indiscretion), I came out second best in terms of quality.
Would Labour curb the pointless junkets on St Patrick’s Day?
Well, some of them are pointless. I think the Saint Patrick’s Day thing internationally is something other small countries would give their left hand for. It is an opportunity to sell Ireland abroad and to attract investment here. It is easy to be critical of it from the point of view of the carbon footprint and the point of view of junketeering and all the rest, but I wouldn’t downplay the benefits.
Would you OK Steve Staunton as a Labour candidate if offered?
No, but I would endorse Brian Kerr if he offered (Kerr is canvassing at the moment in Dublin South Central for Labour TD Mary Upton). It is important that you have a Labour disposition if you are going to be a Labour candidate, and I think Brian would make a great TD.