Gerry's big adventure

The imminent general election will almost certainly result in Sinn Féin securing their highest ever number of seats since amending their rules in 1986 to permit members to sit in Dáil Éireann.

In fact, according to some opinion polls, Sinn Féin are enjoying a level of support more or less equal to that of Labour – making them the (joint) third most popular political party in the 26 counties. But despite Sinn Féin’s strong surge in support, which would potentially be sufficient for any other party to negotiate a place in a coalition, every other political party is just saying 'NO'. Irrespective of being able to take up Ministries in the recently formed Northern Assembly, it seems that Sinn Féin still have a long way to go before being embraced by mainstream politics in the Republic.
Gerry Adams is adamant, however, that the rhetoric from other parties, is mere propaganda.
“The nonsense that all of the parties – and all of them have said this – that they would not go into government with Sinn Féin, or go looking for the support of Sinn Féin, is a lie,” proffers Adams. “Go and ask any Sinn Féin councillor how many councillors from Fine Gael, Labour, Fianna Fáil, and others, have lined up, looking for votes in the Senate… We know that, if it comes to it, what some of these people are about is power, at any price.”
Born in 1948, Adams has been a member of Sinn Féin since 1963. He spent periods back in the early 1970s, as a political prisoner, in the likes of Long Kesh and Maidstone, under the Special Powers Act, which allowed the British government to imprison without trial.
In 1983, he became the party’s first member, in over 30 years, to be elected to the British House Of Commons. The following year, Adams was seriously injured in an assassination attempt, when the UFF sprayed his car with 20 bullets.
Adams, who has always refuted claims that he was a member of the IRA, was also allegedly on its governing army council back in the mid-1970s. For over 20 years now, Adams has been leader of Sinn Féin.

Jason O’Toole: It must be a great feeling to see Martin McGuinness sitting down as deputy First Minister in Northern Ireland.
Gerry Adams: Well, it’s a great relief. He’s obviously been wanting to get his Ministerial position for the last year or two – I am only joking (laughs)! It’s a big achievement for everybody involved. If you are to ask me what is the ingredient that made all this happen – it is dialogue. Dialogue is the main ingredient in any process of conflict resolution. And when we talk about dialogue, then we have to think about people who closed down dialogue, didn’t let it happen, prevented it; and then other people, who at some risks to themselves, argued for dialogue...
Like whom?
With the exception of Fianna Fáil, which had to be brought very painfully along this road, all the other parties – Labour, Fine Gael, PDs – were opposed to the Peace Process. And they told us that it wasn’t possible to get peace. We were described as gangsters, criminals. We were censored – we weren’t allowed into municipal buildings to hold our Árd Fheis. Now, I think we have proved that we can strategically work out positions, and create conditions, which bring about advancement. So, it is a good feeling. It’s good for Ireland.
Do you regret not participating in the cabinet?
No, not at all. This is a bit of a mantra for us, but Sinn Féin is an all-Ireland party, and we want to be in government in both parts of the island – and we want to see one government for the entire Ireland. So, that needs an awful lot of political organisation and political management, and so on, and I am more than busy doing everything that I am, I suppose, condemned to do by virtue of the position that I am in.
Would you ever consider running for election in the Republic?
I don’t think so. We have a slight difficulty in that a lot of our very public leadership is identified with the North, but that just disguises the fact that we have an Árd Comhairle of about 50 people – the majority of them are from the South. We have a whole crop of young representatives coming forward. I think you’ll see, in the period ahead, more and more of those people coming into leadership positions.
What about running for President?
No, no. We are only interested in elective positions as part of that process of bringing about change for the benefit of people. And, this might sound a bit silly, but I really don’t have any personal political ambitions. I think it is good for people to have personal political ambitions, but I just don’t have any.
Are we going to see a united Ireland?
Absolutely.
Will we see it in my lifetime?
Well, if God spares you. If there was any justice in the world, Ireland would have never been disunited and we would never have been under British control. I think we are going to see a united Ireland because we are going to keep working at it. And it just makes sense – it makes sense economically, it makes sense socially, but, most importantly, it makes sense in terms of the sense of well-being. The agreement with Ian Paisley has just induced – and this is with Unionists as well as with the rest of us, and people who have no politics at all – just a sense of, ‘Isn’t this brilliant’. People are actually proud that this has been accomplished. I think as we continue to build bridges into unionism and bridges with unionism, we are going to see a united Ireland.
If Sinn Féin are successful in this election, would you go into coalition with Fianna Fail?
Sinn Féin will go into coalition on the basis of programmes for government with whatever party is prepared to knuckle down and agree a programme for government with us. We also require, as your question acknowledges, a mandate. What sort of programme for government would we want? First of all, we cannot take for granted the ongoing effort to bring about the all-Ireland political institutions, and that harmony and peace between orange and green – so that has to be a very central part of government policy. I mean, the process would have got completed, or would have got to this point, much more quickly if the Irish government had been more focused at different times.
What else would be in your programme for government?
There is a need to tackle all the disadvantage which is in society because we firmly believe that people deserve change now – not in some visionary united Ireland of the future, but now. The wealth is there to bring about that change. A programme for government would have to have radical, progressive, common-sense policies. And I think the people on this island still have a sense of social solidarity – they don’t want communities to be left behind, they don’t want individuals to be left behind. If other parties are prepared to come up to the plate in terms of such a programme, then Sinn Féin will go into government if we have the mandate. I am watching what is obviously the politics of the auction, at the moment, and it must really piss-off the ordinary citizen, as one party tries to outbid the other. If people want change, they should vote for Sinn Féin – particularly young people. Young people especially need to come out to vote. It’s crucial.
There is a common accusation that Sinn Féin’s economic policies are totally un-costed and unrealistic...
Sinn Féin is very, very economically literate. What Sinn Féin has is a different ideological position – and it should be, incidentally, the position of the Labour Party and it isn’t – and that is that public money should be used for public services: that people have the right to decent homes, jobs, decent education, and, from the cradle to the grave, a decent health service. That’s what we are about. The proof is our stewardships of the health and education departments in the North. Our ability to manage the budget of Belfast City Council and other councils across the North. And our ideologically positions, which is a Republican position, which is about cherishing all the children of the nation equally. That’s what distinguishes us.
I interviewed Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbitte recently. Both categorically stated that they would not go into government with Sinn Féin.
That doesn’t bother me. It’s their choice. For Fine Gael and Labour to be in coalition, for me, is just a complete contradiction of everything that James Connolly, or any rooted socialist, would stand for. Someone coined the phrase that Labour, instead of being in the vanguard, ends up being the mudguard. That has been the experience of Labour going into coalitions with these other conservative parties. What they are trying to do is present themselves as an alternative government. It makes sense, from their point of view. If you’re saying that you are the alternative government – that Enda’s the Taoiseach and Pat’s the Tánaiste – you don’t then say to people, ‘We would also consider coalescing with someone else’. I just think that there is no alternative government there, in terms of Pat and Enda…
What do you make of Enda Kenny’s new haircut? Pat Rabbitte says he doesn’t like it.
Pat is probably just jealous.
Kenny seems to be have created a new persona modelled on JFK. Do you not think the electorate will buy this?
To tell you the truth, I think if I did my interview with you talking about any other politician I’d be making a mistake (laughs). I’m here to talk about Sinn Féin.
I was going to ask you about your assessment of Bertie?
He’s had 10 years. You have to measure that 10 years in terms of the changes he has brought about. Personally, I get on well with the Taoiseach. This has got to do with the politics of the situation – not the personalities. Has he managed to finance the economy well? No, not certainly, in what I would refer to as the republican way – because republicanism is about citizenship, it is about everybody being equal, it’s about citizens having rights, it is about the wealth being used for the common good. If you look back, over a period, they have sold off the family silver. In terms of this government, it isn’t its money – it’s your money, it’s the taxpayers money, so where is the money being invested? Because it is not being invested in public services. There is no strategic planning in terms of public services.
Do you think it is acceptable that the American military can use Shannon airport?
No, I don’t. I think there have to be arrangements, obviously, by all sovereign states to fight any threat to their security. But Ireland needs to take an independent stance. And that will, at times, mean co-operating with the US and it will mean at times co-operating with others, but there shouldn’t be this attitude that just allows the US to use an Irish airport to smuggle people who are being held illegally, and in contravention of international law.
Where does Sinn Féin stand on immigration?
A nation like ours, which has been so dependent for social, economic, political, colonial reasons, should be the last people to be perpetrators of racism. We should look into our own immediate past – remember 'no Irish, no blacks, no dogs'. I have a little placard, which was given to me by a women from Boston, and she used to be in the boarding houses there, and it says: ‘No Irish need apply'. I have it at home. We, who live in the North, in my lifetime, will remember newspaper advertisements advertising jobs for housekeepers, for labourers, for all sorts of positions, with a ‘No Catholic Need Apply’. So, it is a big challenge for people here. Every time I go through Dublin I am amazed by all the different shades of skin colour, and people from Asia, or Oriental background, but I think if it is regulated properly, if it is done sensibly, then it’s to the benefit of the people who live here.
Some EU states are refusing to open their doors to workers from new accession members.
I think it needs to be regulated. We need to have legislative rights for workers so there can be no exploitation, so there is no temptation by an employer to employ a person from Poland at a cheaper rate. If the economy weakens then public opinion can be very quickly stirred to blame the immigrants, to blame the migrant workers. I have talked to people in this city and I have to say I think people are still very, very sound. I remember one woman, a waitress actually, and she was giving off about, ‘Some blacks getting flats,’ and her daughter couldn’t get a flat, and her daughter was living with her and so on, and I said, ‘It’s no their fault', and within two minutes she said, ‘You’re right. I’m sorry', because she realised that it’s up to the State to provide housing.
What's your response to Ireland’s failure to meet its target on aid for developing nations?
I think it is disgraceful. It does not represent the will of the people of this island and I think it was really miserly what the government did.
Have you ever tried marijuana?
Not yet! No, no, I haven’t.
How about legalising marijuana?
I have never really thought about it. I am very taken by the arguments of those who have thought about it and who used to argue for it, and who now say it becomes a route into hard drugs. So I don’t know enough about it, to tell you the truth.
Enda Kenny is saying he will introduce drug testing in schools. What would your reaction be to that?
I listen to him saying a whole lot of things that he is going to do, and I don’t even know if he would have the legal entitlement to do those things. I mean, it is very, very important that young people are treated with respect. It is very, very important that they feel they have a stake in society, as opposed to, ‘We are going to drug test them'. I think it comes totally from a wrong angle. The whole issue of illegal drugs needs to be tackled.
How?
What we need are therapeutic policies, in terms of helping people who are addicts, in terms of ensuring that people have a stake in society, and a sense that they are part of the Celtic Tiger. They see everybody else with the credit cards, they see everybody else with the sense of affluence and wealth, and what have they got? They’ve got nothing. So, they end up on drugs, and they end up feeding a habit by mugging people and all of that sort of criminality. And what happens is – and it is as old as the human experience – is that the gap between (different parts of) society widens and you end up with what are almost ganglands.
Do you believe in God?
I do believe in God, yeah.
Describe for me Gerry Adam’s heaven?
Well, I don’t know about heaven, now! I’m trying to figure that one out. I would go to mass and I would like all the gospel stories – the stories that Jesus told. I think a lot of them make a lot of sense, and they are all about, ‘Love your neighbour’, they are all about sharing, looking after each other, hate the sin not the sinner, he who is without sin cast the first stone. I like that sort of sense, but as I read about stuff and, as I see how people use religion… then you open you mind to how Christianity has been exploited in our own country but also globally. And then I opened myself up to Buddhism, Muslimism, to Paganism, to the Druids, so I think it is more important to have a sense of spirituality.
But when you die, is there a heaven and hell?
Who knows? As Christy Moore says, ‘Is this heaven? Is this hell? Who knows? Who can tell? Anyone for the last few choc ices?’
Would you describe yourself as a religious person?
I am always loath to getting into labelling myself. I am very conscious of our own sort of (pauses)… one of the good things about being shot and surviving is that you know how easy it is to be taken out. So, I am very, very conscious of immortality. I am very, very conscious of a lot of people who have gone before us. You know – family members, friends. John O’Donoghue wrote a book called ‘Anam Cara,’ which is a book of Celtic spirituality, which I would commend to anyone, and I like that idea. The ancient Irish believed that people’s spirits would stay around places that they liked, rocks and streams – my colleague is wondering where I am going with this interview! – but I like that sort of sense of a continuum, of ancestors. I am against empires, which includes churches. I am against hierarchies, big institutions, and organisations that build up their own bureaucracy, their own rules.
And what are your thoughts on organised religion?
At the core of all of this there has to be human dignity. If I understand the teachings of Christ, or if I understand these different religions, it is about liberation of the human spirit. What a lot of the big institutions, including elements of the Church are about, is the suppression – if not suppression, it is control. What has been wrong with Ireland for so long has been the control by the churches and the control by a very conservative establishment – and, for most of our history, by English colonialists. If you are not allowed to think certain ways, if you are not allowed to develop in certain ways then you are being infringed upon. So my notional view about politics is that politics has to be about empowering people; my notional view about religion is that it has to be about liberating people.
You were educated by the Christian Brothers – was this education beaten into you?
Yeah – other people had really very bad memories of Christian Brothers, but I have to say that I don’t have bad memories. I have been slapped and had dusters flung at me, and been insulted, but that was the norm. The Christian Brothers from Munster, who came into Belfast brought hurling. If I was to thank the Brothers for anything, it would be the fact that they brought Gaelic games into poor urban communities.
Do you think there is a demonising of teenagers going on at the moment, with the introduction of ASBOs and the hype around teenage drinking?
There is no harm in a teenager going out and having a few pints at the weekend – and we are against ASBOs. But the biggest drug in Ireland at the moment is alcohol. Every second premises in most of our main streets is a pub. Look at the advertisement in sport – if you drink too much Heineken you will never chase a rugby ball. If you drink too much Guinness, you’ll never puck a sliotar. The thing is mad the way it’s propagated. All of this goes back to what I was saying earlier on – and it is about having a society, which is holistic, in which there is a sense of civic-ness of public service, of active citizenship, and our young people need to be inculcated into all of that. I do think there is a problem – and it is the same in my constituency – of underage drinking, and I think that’s a danger.
But is it OK for an 18-year-old to get pissed on the weekend?
Yes, as long as that doesn’t become a dependency upon alcohol. I come from a large family and from a community where the majority of people are young and most of them behave in a responsible way. Not all of them drink, by any stretch, but this business of demonising young people should stop. We should also face up to the fact that deaths on the roads, and the particular scourge of suicide, which is affecting young men, needs to be tackled. There is something wrong in society that you have so many people taking their own lives. We need to know what is causing it, and make provision for mental illness or depression – and we need to ensure that we treat young people in particular with respect.
What about the campaign of harassment being waged by Gardaí in relation to people who legitimately under the law have a drink, or maybe two with a meal, and find themselves being treated as if they are criminals? Do you think the Gardaí are being too heavy handed?
No, I don’t. I think there is a national crisis in terms of the number of people who are being killed on the roads. More people have cars. We haven’t put in the proper means of educating people and people are killed on the roads. So, you can’t drink and drive. It is a small sacrifice. It is difficult particularly for people in rural areas, I understand that, but people shouldn’t drink and drive. Two of my nephews were killed in a car accident. Two young guys, one about 14 and the other who just had his licence for a year or two, and they are wiped out. So I support efforts to cut down on speeding; I support efforts to stop drunk driving.
What about introducing a zero level?
I think it is at the point now where you would be risking difficulty if you only had one drink, so you are better off not having any.
Did Martin Ferris consult with you before making his contrite appearances on radio about his so-called drink driving incident?
No, he didn’t. I only spoke to Martin about an hour ago and he is genuinely embarrassed. And why wouldn’t he be? He is annoyed and he is embarrassed. I put in a call for him at 12 o’clock and he didn’t return my call until about 5 o’clock, or whatever time it was.
Should same sex marriages be allowed in the Republic?
I think the people should have the right to civil partnership. I am back to the notion of equality. OK, you mightn’t want to do it, he mightn’t want to do it, but that doesn’t mean you prevent anybody else from doing it. People have the right. So the answer to that is yes.
Should abortion be legalised?
Abortion is a very, very complex issue. We would have a policy which is against abortion as a means of birth control, which is also against criminalising women who have had abortions, which believes that there needs to be a lot of sex education, there needs to be a lot of availability of contraception, and so on. Which would allow for the situation, if the woman was subjected to rape or incest, that she could under those circumstances, if she wished, have an abortion. But I think it is an issue that is profoundly difficult for politicians to deal with.
I have asked all the party leaders I have interviewed this – how many laws have you broken?
Oh, jeepers! A few – mostly bad laws. I was imprisoned and tried to escape on a number of occasions. Tons of protests. I have broken quite a few but, ah, I would have to go and talk to my solicitor before I could give you details (laughs).
Do you think music can make a difference in politics?
There are lots of political songs and there are writers and ballad singers who specialise in protest and other political songs – I don't know if it makes a difference in politics but I certainly think that music makes a huge difference in life. I regret very much that I don’t play a musical instrument. It changes your mood. I have been at times under pressure, and I stuck some music on and it lifted my mood entirely.
Do you have an iPod?
I have an iPod. I have everything on it, to tell you the truth. Everything from Dylan to Andrea Bocelli, to the Four Tenors, to some light classical, to Ry Cooder, to Bruce Springsteen, Frances Black, Christy Moore, Mary Black, U2 – a whole range of stuff.
Are you able to upload songs yourself onto your iPod?
I haven’t been able to do it myself. I got a guy, no, I tell a lie…I downloaded a lot of my CD collection onto my computer, and then I put it onto the iPod. But I have not been able to change it since. So, my first sort of batch of 600 songs has remained static. I don’t have a credit card, so I have a few times downloaded on iTunes to go to buy a CD but then run into this difficulty. But now what I do is, I get one of my friends that does have a credit card, to do it for me.
What do you make of Bono accepting a knighthood?
I wouldn’t have taken it – but then I wouldn’t have been offered it (laughs). I like his music; I also like very much the work that he does in terms of the Third World and so on. I’m a Republican so I don’t believe (pauses)… there needs to be some sort of an honours system which honours citizens but, I suppose, I would have no problem if he had been accepting an honour from the French government, or from some other government but, I think, up until we complete the journey that Ireland and Britain are on, which leaves us as free independent nations, mutually respectful of each other, then I always have a little problem with people accepting from the British establishment. But it is his choice.
Do you support segregated religious education in Northern Ireland?
The one Minister of Education who put more money into integrated education than anybody else in the history of the state was Martin McGuinness. There has to be parental choice, but it is an issue, which I think needs to be tackled. I’m increasingly of a view that we need to, on the one hand, uphold religious and civil liberties – that has to be a constitutional entitlement, which is knuckled down – but we have to separate the affairs of the state from the affairs of the churches, and faith has to be a modern, private and personal consciousness. If you are asking me am I for segregated education – no, I am not for segregated education. I am for the right of parents to make their choice, but increasingly, I think, we should be trying to bring about a situation where our young people mix regardless of their background. The Irish language medium of education has been very, very good at bringing together people of whatever particular faith, or none, and educating them and grounding them in a very, very progressive way.
Will the families of the disappeared have a resolution to their terrible trauma?
I think so. I mean, I am certain in my head that the sites which the IRA have identified are the right sites. I know for a fact that the IRA has co-operated hugely with the Commission. I am also loath to raise the expectations of the families. Richard (Sinn Féin colleague) and I have been in touch with every family but one. Yes, there is a huge effort being made to give them what they should have always had – the right to a Christian burial.
Are you sick of trying to defend yourself from acquisitions that you have been an IRA member?
I accept it is a sort of legitimate journalistic question. What drives me mad is if you continued to pursue it and, if I was doing a five-minute interview and it takes up the whole five minutes – I want to talk about other issues.
Is it difficult for you living under constant threat of your life?
It isn’t something that I think about ever day, or every minute, but it clearly is a factor. I just get on with it. People are very resilient and, of course, it is always more difficult for families than it is for the activist. I am blessed with a family who are very supportive. We are also very lucky that I am doing this interview – many other people have been killed, or aren’t here, or are very seriously injured, so I just consider myself to be very lucky.