Out! Out! Out!

There was no handshake as Lord Mayor Ben Briscoe welcomed me into his office in Dublin’s Mansion House. But then welcome is hardly the appropriate word. "The reluctant interviewee," he said, by the way of self-introduction.

He elaborated as we sat beside his desk.

"What happened was this nice, sexy young, girl rang me and said she wanted to interview me for Hot Press. Then when I felt that was not to be the case, I felt I’d been…"

This statement remained unfinished as we were interrupted by a gentleman asking if we would like some coffee.

"And the point is I know that your magazine is aimed at young people and you're more interested in slagging then anything else," he added somewhat gratuitously.

Pointing out that this was a very biased interpretation of what the paper was about. I explained that we intended to print the interview in a question and answer format.

Mention of a short piece in a similar vein, in In Dublin recently, had him scowling.

"When I read that I realised I’d been totally misquoted and misrepresented…" Enquiring why he hadn’t written to clarify any inaccuracies there might have been in the article, his face remained stoical. "What the point?" he asked. "Once it’s in print, it’s in print and that’s what people believe and remember."

As I checked to find how much time he’d allocated for our interview, he said "I’ve got to be somewhere at 10:40". It was 10:04. "It was my understanding was that we would have a minimum of an hour," I replied. He held up to my face his typed timetable for the day and said, "See? I have to be there at 11am, so to do that I’d rather leave at 10:40. Perhaps whoever gave you the message in your office thought I said we’d have till 11 but we don’t."

After explaining to Mr. Briscoe that for the more extensive interviews in Hot Press we usually need anything from an hour to 90 minutes, he said, "OK, I guess it will be alright if I leave at 10:50 though really I ‘d rather leave at twenty to eleven."

It was quite obvious there was no further time for mere chitchat. Before or during the interview.

Joe Jackson: One comment I read about you suggested his political approach seems 'fashioned by insecurity’. Is it?

Ben Briscoe: No.

JJ: There’s no insecurity in your being?

BB: No. I’m very much a constituency man. I know how the people feel about me. They know I care about them. My votes in recent elections have indicated that I have no reason to lack confidence. Because my work, as far as I’m concerned, is about people. I know the people in my constituency. Frequently certain writers have this illusion that they know everything about the politician. They know nothing about the politician, how they work in the constituency. Never once in 23 years in the Dail had a journalist ever asked to come around my constituency with me.

Occasionally, during an election, they come out and knock on three or four doors with you and find out what the response is to you at the door, but they never spend a day with me.

When I came into the office of Lord Mayor a journalist from the Irish Press came around with me and saw me in action. So they have no idea of me, there’re working from their offices.

JJ: So would you say then that you are being viewed through a telescope and represented unfairly?

BB: Absolutely. Yes, indeed. And misquoted. I’ve seen comments attributed to me in quotes, which I’ve never made and because they are put in quotes it is assumed that the quote is accurate.

JJ: As Lord Mayor you don’t have much political clout or money to spend on projects. What, in real terms, can you do in relation to the problems say of the inner city?

BB: The beauty of the mayor’s role is that it is non-political. As Lord Mayor of Dublin I represent all the people of Dublin whether they are Fine Gael, Workers’ party, progressive, Democrats, non-party. Whatever they are, I represent them. I’m in a position of being First Citizen and as such I believe one should behave in such a manner as will reflect credit on one’s city. You can do that without being pompous. I’m not a pompous person.

But, no. There is no money to spend o projects—but what you can do is direct monies that are given for charities to different organisations. If somebody is doing a launch of some big product, and happened they are recently with Unilever—they gave a £1,000 cheque and I asked that it would be given to ARCH, which is the Association for Recreation Clubs for the Handicapped, which do very good work. That way is the nearest you are going to get to the distribution of money.

JJ: Do you therefore feel inadequate when it comes to dealing with what some would see as the deeper problems of Dublin City, such as drugs, prostitution, and racketeering?

BB: Yes, you’re not an administrator. It might be reducing the office to say it, but the nearest thing I can compare it to is, you’re an ‘official greeter’. You’re there to meet people in behalf of the city, open various organisations etc. For example, tonight Aer Lingus are presenting wings to a hundred stewards and stewardesses and I’ll be there to present the wings to those people.

JJ: In terms of other problems I mentioned, do you ever wish you could confront those?

BB: Well we do, in the best way we can: in my work as a politician, in acquainting my party to the issues, certainly through the minister For Justice in the case of law and order. I remember some years ago when my leader Mr. Haughey became Taoiseach I went to him and I said that the biggest problem as I saw in my constituency, wasn’t unemployment, wasn’t deflation but that people couldn’t leave their homes, particularly old people, for fear of being attacked. Or fear of homes being broken into when they aren’t home. That situation has improved somewhat but it seems to regress every so often.

JJ: In relation to those areas into which you might direct money did you during the Gay Sweatshop Controversy, publicly voice your dislike of homosexuals’ as was reported at the time?

BB: No I have no recollection of having done that at all.

JJ: Did you object to Corporation funds being given to the Project Arts Centre because they were staging such a production?

BB: As chairman of the Cultural Committee, we’ve only got a limited amount of money to distribute… to various organisations. One tries to encourage the growth of arts by giving it to amateur organisations. The Project Arts Centre started out as an experimental theatre. It’s now an ongoing commercial enterprise…But no I never specially stated

…People will take the thing up. That does not mean I approve (pause) of necessarily plays that are put on to shock people or to attract people in by exhibitionism of sorts.

JJ: Do you mean specifically Gay plays?

BB: No, I’m not taking specifically. I mean things like plays with bad language. I object to films —marvellous films come out of Hollywood but they’ve got foul language in them. I really think that’s unnecessary when you’ve got a good story, that they think they need bad language. I really feel upset. I like my children to - I mean, I enjoy thrillers, spy films, the chase etc. but not sadistic violence. I feel that’s more immoral than nudity.

JJ: If, in their attempt to rebuild the Hirschfield Centre, the gay community approached the corporation or the Lord Mayor for funds, would you have any moral objection?

BB: We’re not in the business of financing any community stuff of that sort. That’s like saying, "Would you believe that you should finance any cult of some other sort? Whether it’s a ‘cult’ or not is for other people to say. I know you are trying to trap me into attacking the gay community.

JJ: I don’t want you to make an attack on the Gay Community. On the contrary: Why not use the opportunity to reassure those readers who may have thought, judging from the newspaper reports that you are prejudiced against the Gay Community. If you want to attack, that’s your choice.

BB: I’m saying to you that my view has always been known in relation to those things. These are just issues, which are sometimes raised by other people, on which on which I’ve made no comment at all. It’s as simple as that, next question as they say.

JJ: So you are not willing to say whether you -

BB: (Interrupts) I don’t think that money is entitled to be voted -

JJ: (finishes question which is ignored) ...are or are not prejudiced against gays?

BB: ...for something whether it is moral or an immoral organisation. That has nothing to do with public funding. I think that even the suggestion that people who profess to be homosexual and are quite proud of the fact, that therefore the State or state agencies through Dublin Corporation or any County Council should build them a centre where they can… I don’t understand the logic.

JJ: Where they can what?

BB: Gather, get together, have their own clubhouse. They’re not the Scouts, they’re not the Girl Guides, y’know (laughs). I think the question just doesn’t arise.

JJ: So you can’t reassure readers who might feel you are prejudiced against gays, that in fact you are not?

BB: If they can interpret any prejudice against them in my saying that funding should not go toward building clubs for people to gather, who profess to be homosexual, well (sentence fades)

JJ: Some may read implications of such prejudices in ‘They’re not the Scouts or the Girl Guides’

BB: I’m talking about youth organisations. For example, I have a letter on my desk from a unit of the Order of Malta whose equipment was vandalised when their premises were broken into. Now I think something like that is entitled to a grant from the corporation because these people who are handicapped. They are doing something in the community for others, not for themselves. They’re serving their fellow human beings. I use that as an example of where public funding should be allotted.

JJ: How would you respond if your son told you he was homosexual?

BB: (Incredulously) say that again.

JJ: How would you respond if Andrew told you he was homosexual?

BB: (Answers slowly, seethingly) I have no comment to make about my family whatsoever. This is an interview between you and me. I’m not bringing my family into this. (Mr. Briscoe already had in answering an earlier question on the same subject—Ed) I have no other comment to make, good bad or indifferent on homosexuality. On to the next question, if you like.

JJ: In relation to the collision between yourself and Mr. Haughey some years ago which now -

BB: (interrupts) I’m not going into that either. I’ve gone into that ad infinitum. That’s history, it’s past. Our relationship now is excellent.

JJ: But readers might be interested to know how the relationship was repaired or can now be ‘excellent’ after you publicly likened Mr. Haughey’s leadership to a ‘Fascist Dictatorship’?

BB: I didn’t.

JJ: Then don’t you think it’s best that such reports should be cleared up?

BB: I’m just telling you that I never said that.

JJ: How then do you explain an Irish Times report of 1983 which claimed you said that one of Mr. Haughey’s statements at the time’ smacked dictatorship and an attempt to undermine democracy?

BB: I did say… look we’re going back to an era, which is gone. It’s finished. It’s history. I have no comment to make on that. Next question.

JJ: This will leave a huge gap in our interview.

BB: It can leave a big enough gap as you like in the interview. I’ve no comment. I’m not going over all that ground again. I’ve done it before in the Sunday World. I did an in-depth interview on these issues. If you want to refer to that article you can and get whatever… As far as I’m concerned I’m not going into that area. I’m sick and tired of answering questions. People say, "Well these things have to be cleared up." I’ve answered them again and again. As far as I’m concerned, when the decision of the party was made on that motion (Ben Briscoe tabled the motion in 1983 that Fianna Fail should request the resignation of Charles Haughey from leadership of the party—Ed) that was the end of it. Those allegations that I called him those names are totally untrue.

JJ: So, if they are on file as being said, I think in the Dail -

BB: (interrupts) They weren’t said in the Dail. Besides, which article in the Irish Times are you referring to?

JJ: A number of Irish Times Reports written in 1983.

BB: Who wrote them?

JJ: Well I’m afraid I can’t quite recall who The Irish Times reporters would have been at the times those who may have covered events in the Dail, but the reports can be verified.

BB: (Smirking) Well, those things were not said in the Dail, the debate wasn’t in the Dail -

JJ: Well wherever it was is not as important as what was said-

BB: The Irish Times wasn’t present.

JJ: The fact is those quotes are on the record-so would you now say they are inaccurate or a lie?

BB: What quote in particular?

JJ: Your suggestion that if you examine line for line a statement made by Mr. Haughey you could, I think it said, ’only come to the conclusion that Mr. Haughey no longer recognises the right of the Parliamentary Party which elected him to remove him from office'.

BB: That’s right. That is an -That is from an interview, but I’m not going back over those interviews from years ago. If that’s the way this interview is going to take place I suggest you cancel it.

JJ: Basically what we are trying to do is give to the readers a sense of the man behind his role as Lord Mayor. To do that I must go into your history, as a politician, as a human being -

BB: (Interrupts) I really think we’ll have to end the interview. I’m sorry Joe, but you’re only interested in controversy. I’m not getting into anything controversial. I was reluctant in the first place to talk to your paper, because I had the feeling and it’s been borne out by the manner of questions, that you are only interested in controversy.

JJ: Actually I felt that as certain controversies you’ve been involved in have very much fed into the public perception of Ben Briscoe, they had to be addressed.

BB: (Barley restraining his rage) I’m going to answer you very straight. The public perception of this man in this office is that every election since 1981 I have gotten first count in excess of the quota. That is the public perception of this man. Thank you very much. And as far as I’m concerned that ends the interview. (Rises from seat)

JJ: I’ll have to put all this in print -

BB: You can.

JJ: If you change your mind contact us.

BB: I won’t change my mind.

JJ: Well I’m sorry you responded in such a manner, to what I see as just questions about issues you’ve been most open about in the past - (Mr Briscoe stands silently by his desk until the tape recorder turns off).

* * *

Escorting me out of the office the Lord Mayor of Dublin told me: "I’ve spent my whole life trying to make things better for people but no matter what you do there are always those who will try to tear you down. As I say I had reservations about this interview from the beginning. When I say that all you people are interested in is controversy I know what I’m talking about."

"If you read any of my interviews, or the majority of interviews in Hot Press " I replied, "you’d see we usually cover a wide range of issues. Some controversial, most not."

"Be that as it may but, I’m not sorry I can’t help you on this one. Good day."

* * *

A note from the editor:

It is Hot Press’ conviction that any interview with Ben Briscoe which failed to address the Lord Mayor’s current stance on key issues on which he has taken a controversial public stand in the past would, by definition, be inadequate. However, we had also intended to discuss with Mr. Briscoe among other subjects: his hopes for tenure as Lord Mayor; the future of the city of Dublin through his eyes; his definition of his Jewishness; his experience of anti-semitism in Ireland; his attitude to self-styled National Socialist Irish Workers Party; Israel and its role in the conflict in the Middle East; South Africa; Authoritarianism; capital punishment; interment; travellers’ rights; and his private life attitudes only in as much as they reflect on his role as a public representative and his current status as the First Citizen of Dublin.

Following the Lord Mayor’s summary termination of his interview, there are many questions which we believe at Hot Press readers - and the public in general - would want him to address, which remains unanswered.

The ball is in your court, Mr. Briscoe.