The Minister: "We can't have a complete nanny state"

Today could prove to be a career-defining one for Pat Carey as he addresses the first meeting of the group that’s been entrusted with formulating Ireland’s new National Drugs Strategy.

While adamant that it’s a genuine consultative process rather than an elaborate rubber-stamping of government policy, the Minister for State with special responsibility for Drugs Strategy and Community Affairs at the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs – “It’s not the snappiest of titles, is it?” he admits – makes it clear during our post-meeting interview that thinking on the subject needs to be more enlightened than is currently the case.
As he did last July when hotpress first interviewed him, the 61-year-old former teacher has short shrift for tired ‘Just Say No’ rhetoric and the self-appointed moral guardians that peddle it. Instead, he’s willing to embrace harm reduction; consider the merits of legal highs like BZP; and generally favours personal responsibility over what he derides as “the nanny state.”

STUART CLARK: Since we last spoke to you drugs have probably been the major news story in Ireland. First of all, what did you make of the controversy surrounding Justine Delaney-Wilson’s The High Society?
PAT CAREY: I read it in detail. The book isn’t well written, and I’m on record as saying that the RTÉ programme connected to it wasn’t in any way enlightening or made people aware of the issues around drug misuse. The book and the film made allegations that weren’t followed up and substantiated. I was more critical of RTÉ than of Justine Delaney-Wilson in that if they had information it was in the public interest that they made it available to the Gardai.
Does it ring true to you that a government Minister would confess to taking cocaine in a hotel that’s 50 metres away from Daíl Éireann, and frequented around the clock by their political colleagues?
To confess to somebody who’s an unknown… I mean, I’ve yet to meet another journalist who’s been able to say, “I know Justine Delaney-Wilson’s work, I’ve met her.” The journalists around Leinster House, they’ve all said, “Who is she?” It’s highly unlikely that a senior politician, of any party, would confide in somebody (like that). If that allegation were proved to be true, the implications for the politician and the government and politics generally would be extremely serious. I’m sure Michael O’Leary or Dermot Mannion in Aer Lingus would be equally concerned if it were established that one of their pilots flew under the influence of cocaine.
You’ve been very critical of RTÉ.
I was disappointed, and I felt that the internal inquiry they undertook was a hand-washing exercise. It was a whitewash. They were trying to justify what they did in showing the Justine Delaney-Wilson programmes on the basis of the subsequent Primetime reports into cocaine. There was no ethical connection between the two. Kevin Shanley’s Primetime programmes were superbly well-researched and thought-provoking. Whereas the others – talk about taking something sight unseen! There was a lapse of judgement on the part of the people in RTÉ.
Those Primetime specials aside, is there any other media coverage of the drugs issue that you think has set out to inform rather than scaremonger?
There’s one organ of the media which hasn’t been given nearly enough credit, and that’s The Irish Examiner newspaper and their journalist Cormac O’Keefe. They produced an extremely worthwhile supplement in early December, which was a warts and all analysis of the situation. I would have been highly critical of the Irish Times for not really addressing the issue to the extent I think it’s capable of, but I notice now that Donal Denver, Carl O’Brien and a number of others have begun to do that. Fergus Black of The Irish Independent has taken a considered approach. He’s been looking at practices, not just in Ireland but elsewhere in Europe, and I think that’s beginning to inform a more considered debate.
And the rest of our newspapers?
This ‘War On Drugs’ business, let’s stop using that aul jargon. This kind of top-of-the-head stuff to grab headlines is irresponsible. The Star does it too, referring to me as ‘The Drugs Czar’. This does not contribute to public debate. We need vigorous enforcement of the laws in relation to drugs, but we also have to have an enlightened policy dealing with what is a public health issue.
In what sense?
Down the corridor here today, I addressed the first meeting of the steering group of the new strategy, which is going to address the approach to drugs in Ireland from 2009 to 2016. You’ve everybody in there – the Gardai, the prison services, the health services, education, environment and the community and voluntary sectors. All of them are around the table, and will be so for the next year putting the National Drugs Strategy together. It’s not Pat Carey’s drug strategy, it’s not Fianna Fail’s drugs strategy, it’s a drugs strategy for Ireland. It’s got to be coherent and encompass everything from vigorous enforcement of the laws through to providing treatment options, education options and accommodation options. And then providing a continuum of care for people coming out of addiction – whether that’s alcohol or drugs because there’s no point thinking that somebody will go into a clinic for fourteen weeks and never touch drugs again. Addiction is a condition and to a certain extent a disease. There has to be a support structure for people over a long period of time.
Will the new National Drugs Strategy acknowledge the growing prevalence here of poly-drug use?
Most definitely. In virtually every other country in the world people will take either drugs or alcohol, rarely do they mix them to the same extent we do here. We’re beginning to realise that this has some pretty lethal consequences, but the research isn’t developed either here or in the rest of Europe. There’s a deficit of information.
There’s definitely a deficit of information when it comes to the reporting of ‘cocaine deaths’, which are rarely if ever due to that substance alone.
The concept of poly-drug use is a recent enough one, and it’s not easy for people who aren’t practitioners to get their head round. There’s a good deal of research being done by the Health Research Board here in Ireland, but there’s been a time-lag in information from, say, inquests and coroners reports. The deaths from a single drug are…they’re relatively small. The challenge – and where the deficit of information is most blatant – is in investigating the deaths from mixing cocaine with benzodiazepines or alcohol or whatever. The National Advisory Committee On Drugs and the Health Research Board, over the next two, three months, will be putting a lot of information and analysis into the public domain.
Why, if most deaths are down to substances being mixed, don’t we allow the Dutch-style testing of illegal drugs in clubs to let people know exactly what it is they’re taking?
I don’t know that there’s any evidence to suggest that it would save lives. Even in Holland they’re rolling back. Amsterdam now has a policy of not quite phasing out, but restricting the opening of coffee shops and outlets where in previous years they’ve been quite readily open to a level of experimentation, or controlled use at least. Switzerland is another country not nearly as open or flexible as it was.
Health issues aside, every time you buy an illegal drug you’re handing money to the criminal gangs, paramilitary organisation and extremist religious groups that control the global trade. In light of that, shouldn’t we looking more to New Zealand where legal alternatives like BZP have resulted in a 35% reduction in methamphetamine addiction, and an overall 60% reduction in the taking of illegal substances?
Yeah, I actually met one of the BZP people from New Zealand, Matt Bowden, when he came in with a delegation from the Irish head shops. I’ve also spoken independently to people who travelled out to New Zealand, and there isn’t to my mind convincing evidence. First of all, you can’t marry like with like. The pattern of drug use in New Zealand is very different to what it is in the Western Hemisphere. Their approaches to drug treatment are, I think, different to the ones most countries in the developed world are taking.
Will BZP be banned here or do you see merit in their safer, legal drugs argument?
The European Council of Ministers has referred the whole issue of BZP and other synthetic drugs to an expert committee to establish what regulation is appropriate in the EU context. I imagine by late spring we’ll know. The likely harm to public health of synthetic substances needs to be clearly established. And on the basis of that, the health authorities must then take a decision about what controls, if any, you need to have around them. People require guidance rather than a knee-jerk reaction saying, “It’s a hallucinogenic-type drug, it has likely side-effects, so therefore we’ll ban it.”
Are you surprised that Ireland now has a multi-million euro head shop industry, which pays taxes and lobbies politicians such as yourself?
No, we live in a free society, so nothing should surprise us. Whether it’s alcohol, BZP or whatever, if people are inclined to get involved they need to know the consequences. There’s such a thing as personal responsibility. We can’t have a complete nanny state. At the end of the day people must have enough information to take their own decisions.
From a moral point of view, it’s great that people can choose not to support criminality by opting for the legal alternative.
Yeah, it is, but then some parents will say to you, “Is it one tablet, two tablets or a fistful of these tablets that’s safe? How do you control these?” There’s a suggestion by the head shop owners that the whole area of self-regulation would be looked at. I’d need a good deal more convincing before I’d go down that road here. It’s not for me anyway; it’d be the Minister for Health or the Minister for Justice to take that particular line. But even in talking to younger people – and we engage a lot through focus groups with them – you might be told something at a meeting with owners of shops and then you find that the practice is not quite as carefully regulated and structured as they would claim.
So it’s how and to whom they’re sold that’s of paramount importance.
Yeah, and that isn’t only confined to so-called ‘legal highs’. One of our biggest problems is the proliferation of prescription drugs. Unfortunately it’s something that’s completely ignored. There are localised protocols – I think it’s still there in Ballymun for instance – between the pharmacist and the GPs and the local sector, but I’d be extremely concerned. A lot of people think, “Ah sure, I have a cold, I’ll take some Panadol”, and they go for a few pints. Some people have no reaction at all to that, others unfortunately do.
It’s the old Irish double standard of people going, “Drugs are terrible!” whilst downing their eighth double-whiskey of the evening.
Oh, absolutely! The biggest problem is alcohol, and then you’re talking about prescription drugs. Food supplements and anabolic steroids are another major area of concern – these are the kind of substances that people regularly misuse, and the alarm bells go off now and again when somebody gets violently sick, or in fact might die as the result of a concoction like that. There should be the same level of concern about them as there is cocaine and heroin.
Whilst obviously tragic, do you think Katy French’s death warranted the blanket coverage it received?
I have to tell you that I didn’t know Katy French at all until that incident. I’m not a television watcher to any great extent, and certainly I don’t have time to read glossy magazines. The level of coverage didn’t surprise me. There was maybe a feeling of, “Jesus, if it could happen to her maybe it could happen to me or my son or my daughter as well.” It’s unfortunate that it took the death of somebody like Katy French to spark it off, but there was something of a national wake-up call.
People will say: “Inner city kid dies from heroin, no one cares. Pretty girl from Wicklow dies, the Taoiseach’s aide de camp is at the funeral.”
Look, whenever a celebrity dies and they’re linked to the media, the media will write up the case. The two lads who died in Ballybeg, they were no national heroes or nationally known figures, but Minister Martin Cullen attended those funerals, as did Brendan Kennelly, the other local Fianna Fail TD. As to who goes to what funeral, there’s a judgment call that individuals make.
Were you consulted about the aide de camp attending Katy French’s?
No, I wasn’t.
Do you feel it was appropriate?
Look, the Taoiseach sends ADCs to funerals all the time, and I’m sure he would have consulted somebody.
The feeling of abandonment that some inner city people have is understandable when, for example, you can walk from Christchurch along Thomas Street to the Liberties at 10 in the morning and see four or five people openly dealing heroin, some from the prams that their babies are in. There has to be an element of the Gardai turning a blind eye for that to go on.
Well, I would hope they haven’t, and to be honest I have a good deal of involvement with the drugs task force in that particular area around St. Catherine’s and Meath Street where there are centres for a range of groups whether it’s the homeless or addicts or people down on Merchant’s Quay. A lot of people who have problems gravitate towards that part of town, but I would hate to see even small time drug dealing having a blind eye turned to it. Low level is just as important as getting Mr. Big, and (points a thumb) I’ll be going to the garda person down the corridor and telling him that.
It’s no wonder that people turn to vigilantism when they see that sort of blatant lawbreaking being tolerated.
I work in an area where that did happen. Communities mobilised themselves and took direct action.
What do you mean by “direct action”?
Well, as direct as marching on the houses of drug dealers and then it was decided that, “Look, this’ll only take us so far. We’ve got to start lobbying politicians, the health authorities and the education authorities for better services and supports.” I think Tallaght is a very good example of where, 15 to 20 years ago, the community went through hell. No facilities, everyone was ignoring them and they started protesting and in a relatively short space of time they had special tax designation allocated to The Square in Tallaght, for example. Housing began to improve – Dublin County Council got very pro-active in estate management but the communities themselves were the main drivers of it. They did things like barricades across the roads and manned checkpoints. Out in Ballymun you had people sitting in the stairwells and checking who was going up to the flats. They never took “no” for an answer.
So the Gardai need to be pressured in to action?
Absolutely, and that’s why the local policing committees have been a very important development. The Gardai kicked and screamed in relation to that particular initiative, but you now have them working in tandem with the local community and their politicians to improve everybody’s quality of life.
The Gardai weren’t impressed when in the wake of Katy French’s death Bertie Ahern told them to start raiding house parties.
I think I said it before he did! I talked about needing whistle-blowers; people who are prepared to come out and say, “Look, this happened at that particular party.” The Gardai tell me they’ve had quite an improvement in the level of feedback they’re getting from sources they previously wouldn’t have got information from.
Are you saying that turning a blind eye to someone taking cocaine at a party is the same as turning a blind eye to an offence like child abuse or drink driving?
Absolutely. That’s why I was so annoyed at RTÉ using the principle of the journalist’s right to protect his or her sources. It’s so important that in the public interest there’s no shield you can hide behind if you have information about drugs.
Who would you ring if you discovered a friend or family member with cocaine – a drug counsellor or the Gardai?
I’d call them aside first, but then to give them a bit of a fright the Gardai would have to be brought into it. Most people I know have – sympathy probably isn’t the right word – an understanding of somebody becoming addicted. But if they’re brazenly giving the two fingers to everyone else in society – “I can do this, I don’t give a f-ing hell about what you think” – they need to be given a short, sharp shock.
Are addicts ill or criminals?
I think they’re ill. They don’t consciously set out to become an addict, they drift into it.
Your call for more needle exchanges hasn’t gone down well with the likes of Europe Against Drugs’ Grainne Kenny.
I don’t suggest needle exchanges just for the hell of it. You’re talking about trying to have at least some kind of safety associated with intravenous drug use. People think you’re going to be knee-deep in needles when you walk out of some place, but you’re not. You’re giving a needle in exchange for a needle.
When did you yourself first become aware of drugs?
1968. I was teaching in Finglas and got involved in youth work. There was a group of lads in the area who were… cider was a big problem then, and they were smoking hash with it. There have been friends of mine and children of friends of mine who’ve got involved in drugs misuse. Some recovered from it and some of them haven’t.
Do you differentiate between soft and hard drugs?
Even over in Britain with their de-classification of drugs, our approach to cannabis would be more benign than theirs. I’m not suggesting that we turn a blind eye, but there’s a protocol where the Gardai give cautions for personal use. Now, if somebody decides to turn their farm or their back garden over to growing it that’s a different matter.
So you support that policy?
I recognise the realities. The evidence suggests that a very high proportion of young people experiment with cannabis and the vast majority go away from it.
Has your own family been effected by drugs?
(Pause) Emm… if you don’t mind… yes.
I just want to see if you agree with a couple of things that one of your predecessors, Eoin Ryan, said to Hot Press. First, no one should go to jail for the personal use of cannabis?
Yeah, I think so.
Cannabis isn’t a gateway drug?
I wouldn’t altogether agree. Few enough people move from cannabis to another drug, but of those who do cannabis and alcohol tend to be the gateway. From that point of view I wouldn’t be as categorical as Eoin.
It’s been suggested that he didn’t last long in the job because his thinking was too progressive for the then Minister for Justice, John O’Donoghue. Do you feel under pressure to toe the party line?
No, I don’t. The Taoiseach gave me the role because, in his words, “You’ve a background in this area” and he’s allowed me to get on with the job. Compared to 10 years ago, there’s an openness and very high-level of co-operation between agencies, government departments and local communities. There’s still a huge amount of work to be done, but I genuinely feel we’re making progress.
If alcohol and cigarettes were invented today, would they be banned?
Probably. Yes, yes.
Paul McCartney. Smoked dope for 40 years. Where’s the harm?
Except not everybody is a Paul McCartney! I’m sure there are people who have certain lifestyles – whether it’s drugs or something else – and go on their merry way. In his case I suspect that it’s being rich and able to afford the best food and medical people that help keep him as healthy as he is.
From Jack Kerouac and Salvador Dali to William Burroughs and Graham Greene, a lot of great art has been fuelled by drugs.
In my experience some of the most gifted people that I’ve come across have had skirmishes with drugs in the hope that they’d expand their mind a bit more. There are some very creative people I’d know who would have an engagement with drugs and a lot of people would’ve packed it in completely. After a while you get terribly tired, you do get old!