The Full Hot Press Interview with Eleanor McEvoy

There are some organisations where being ‘chairperson’ equates to taking on the role of a toothless figurehead. This is certainly not the case, where Eleanor McEvoy and the Irish Music Rights Organisation are concerned. I meet the legendary Irish singer in the Camden Court Hotel, and our posteriors have barely grazed the sofas in the lobby of the hotel, when Eleanor launches into a discussion on what IMRO does for musicians – and her plans for her tenure at the helm of the board there.

For those who don’t know what it is, the Irish Music Rights Organisation is a collective of over 11,000 members – made up of songwriters, composers, music publishers and others – who aim to “protect, promote and develop the collection and distribution of music royalties.” In addition, they endeavour to foster music creativity and to promote the value of music to the creative, cultural and business communities in Ireland.

Eleanor has been on the IMRO board for 16 years, and has passionately fought to defend musicians against copyright infringement, striving to ensure that artists are given fair payment for the use of their work.

When she was first appointed chair in June this year, Eleanor said in a statement that technological changes have given rise to both “opportunities” and “threats” within the music business. And she added that we are currently going through one of “the most challenging times in our industry.” Does she stand by that assessment?

“Well, when you look at what’s happened in the industry in recent years, we’ve been completely screwed,” she says fervently. “Our income as musicians has been absolutely decimated in the past 20 years. You’re seeing this now in the journalism industry too. Copyright infringement is screwing you, because people don’t want to pay for stuff anymore, and a lot of companies don’t want to pay either. You would’ve been better paid at what you’re doing now 10 years ago and that’s a fact. There’s less money now and you have to work three times as hard to get it.

“So with that in mind, you have to say, ‘Right, well this is what’s happened – is there a way for us to change things? What can IMRO do to help?’ We’re a small organisation, but we have a good reputation abroad for working hard to get musicians the royalties they deserve. The main thing that we’re trying to do at the moment is to lobby Brussels like mad, because there’s a copyright directive coming before the EU later this summer, and we need all our MEPs to vote for it. We really do. If we don’t get this legislation through, it could signal the end for us. And I’m not being needlessly dramatic about that.”

The planned EU directive would force streaming sites like YouTube to more fairly remunerate artists for the amount of people who listen to their music. A number of “safe harbour laws” have made it easier for people to upload content onto YouTube, without fear of being slapped down with copyright infringement violations. The upside is that YouTube can be seen as a ‘free’ marketing tool that many emerging musicians – including the likes of Justin Bieber and The Weeknd – have used to significant effect. But the downside, Eleanor argues, is that the laws create a loophole whereby YouTube can earn vast amounts of advertising income when people stream music, while refusing to fairly compensate the music publishers or songwriters.

“Tech firms have exploited these laws completely,” says Eleanor. “It’s plain that people are clicking on the stuff. They’re listening to the music – and advertisers are paying YouTube and Facebook for the ads they carry alongside the videos. But the money’s not going to songwriters. What should go to you – as a songwriter or composer – is now going to someone else. We want to change the law, so that a fair share actually goes to you.

“Jean Michal Jarre, who is the current President of CISAC (the International Confederation of Societies of Authors and Composers – a global body of wehich IMRO is a member) said that it’s like going out to bake a loaf of bread, putting in all the best ingredients, putting it in the oven, and then when it comes out, it gets served to the person at the table next to you. Then whenever they’ve finished, you maybe get a few crumbs. It sounds dramatic, but that is what’s happening.

“Even the likes of Spotify – which most musicians dislike because it pays so little per stream – that at least is legal and is licensed. And with work, the income from Spotify and iTunes and others will go up over time.”

Only 11 Irish MEPs currently sit in the massive European Parliament, which limits our influence, in trying to change things on a European level.

“We’ve been working with a number of similar organisations throughout Europe – PRS in England, SKY in Spain, SASM in France – to lobby MEPs throughout the continent. I think the power of us all together is much greater than one country doing it on its own, and it sends a stronger message if it’s coming from a pan-European group. I also think it’s easier to lobby against 11 people than it is against 100+ TDs in the Dáil. But in saying that, we’re facing incredible opposition from Google (who own YouTube – Ed) on this. They’ve exerted influence on several MEPs to vote against this directive.”

The difficulties of fighting the rough beast that is Big Tech must seem insurmountable…

“Well, this is something that’s hugely important,” Eleanor responds. “You look at Ireland and you think of the power that all these tech firms have over our country – but it should be remembered that much more income is generated by live music in Ireland than all these tech companies combined. Also, more employment is provided in Ireland than all of those organisations put together. But because it’s more dispersed and a little less tangible, politicians fail to see how important it is.”

Similar observations were made in the report conducted earlier this year by Justin Greene of Wide Awake Communications, titled ‘Let’s Celebrate: The Cultural and Economic Contribution of Live Entertainment Events in Ireland’. The report outlined the extensive benefits that live entertainment has for the Irish economy – that for every €1 spent on a ticket for a concert in Ireland, €6.06 is generated. By allowing its musicians and artists to be ripped off, Ireland is not only doing itself a cultural disservice, but an economic one as well. What more can be done to foster the industry?

“It’s so fragmented at the minute,” replies McEvoy. “You’ve got the songwriters over here (gestures to her left), lighting companies here (gestures right), sound companies there, PPI somewhere else, rap, classical music, all these things going on in the industry – all of them in different places with no overall representation. Wouldn’t it be great if we could all come together?

“I was on the government-appointed task force years ago with Niall Stokes and Mairin Sheehy of Hot Press and we were pushing for the need to have a Music Board. In the end they came up with some kind of fudge. But now more than ever, we need to take this industry seriously, the way that Bord Scannán na hÉireann has done for Irish film. I look at what the Film Board has achieved in such a short time, in terms of tourism and generating creativity and income in Ireland through film, and I think, ‘God, wouldn’t it be great if we could get that happening in the music world too?’”

Music and its Social Importance

To say that Eleanor McEvoy is an ideas-woman would be an understatement. Aside from her forward thinking plans for IMRO, she’s also been dipping into uncharted waters musically. Last year, she released her 12th album, Naked Music, which led to a collaboration between her and English artist Chris Gollon, who painted exclusive artwork for the record and accompanied her for a visual/audio tour across several galleries in England. Following this, she toured Ireland and the UK, before deciding to embark on a new project.

The Thomas Moore Project, Eleanor’s newest studio album which will be released next month, stemmed from the singer’s lifelong fascination with the much-misunderstood 19th Century Irish poet, Thomas Moore.

“This will, without a doubt, be the most unpopular thing I’ve ever done,” Eleanor laughs. “Thomas Moore lyrics are the kind of thing you hear sung by drunken people in pubs which make you think to yourself, ‘This is fucking awful!’ It’s associated with parlour bars and someone in an old frock singing (mockingly), ‘That Harppppp that onceeee through Taraaaa’s Hallsss’. You know? That’s the type of singing that people associate with it. Most musicians hate it.

“But if you take it away from all that context, and you look at the actual words, there’s work that you can do there. This album is about taking the words and arranging them, using 21st century styles and methods, and trying to show them for the incredible works of art that they are. You know Beethoven thought Moore was amazing. Charles Dickens loved him. James Joyce doled out praise. And Lord Byron was his best friend in England – he worshipped the ground he walked on and thought he’d never be anywhere as talented as the great Thomas Moore. How many people nowadays would associate Moore with all of that?

“A lot of people resented him because they think he sold us out to the British. He didn’t at all actually – he did more for the cause of Irish emancipation, I think, than at lot of other people – but because he did it with words and a piano and not with a pistol, there’s a funny section in our society that looks down on him for that. I think it’s a hugely significant thing, really, when people reach out and speak to society using music. If we could fight wars with music we’d be way better off. But because Moore did it the way he did, people don’t understand him and they look down their nose at him.”

Does the idea of highlighting the social-mindedness of Moore’s music reflect a feeling that musicians should be politically involved? Eleanor ruminates before answering.

“I try and not to be political all the time,” she says, “because it’s not really my area of expertise. My areas of expertise are chord progressions and melodies and harmony and all that kind of stuff: that’s what I excel at, if I excel at anything. However, I think there’s a lot of stuff you can’t ignore. I think there’s some things that are so big in society that we can’t turn away from them.

“Right now, I’m talking about the massive amounts of hatred in the world. I mean I’m big into Twitter, I love to tweet, but somehow social media has made it okay to be racist, you know? I don’t want to sound like another in a line of broken records here, but the election of Donald Trump really did bring out something extreme. You have someone who openly said: yes he assaulted women; someone who mocked a disabled person; someone who talked about building walls at a time when we’re trying to pull them down – and yet they elected him? And it’s funny, I lived in a bubble before that, and before Brexit, because I only follow the people I like on Twitter and I never looked at how shocking the tide of public opinion could be.”

There’s a danger that people on opposing sides become all the more entrenched in their views, because they live in self-imposed bubbles.

“Exactly. You only watch the channels you want to see. You only read the newspapers you want to read. That’s the problem. I think every liberal-minded person could stand to read tabloid newspapers and I think every tabloid reader should be made read the papers of record. I think everybody that reads The Sun should read The Irish Times once a month, and vice versa.”

The same accusation of “living in a bubble” could be levelled at those who think that the grasp that the Catholic Church have in Ireland is slowly dwindling. Eleanor notes that while Dublin might slowly be moving towards secularism and pluralism, the rural areas where she spends more of her time have remained staunchly religious.

The singer herself has made no secret of her opinions on the Church’s role in Ireland, going so far as to pen the scathingly parodic track ‘Deliver Me (From What You Do)’ on her last album, which mocks the hypocrisy of the Church in relation to the child abuse scandal (“Lead me not into prayer/ Lead me not into despair/ Lead me not into a place/ Where those who suffer are disgraced”).

“The Catholic Church still hasn’t apologised for what went on for years under their watch,” she says, stone-faced. “I mean when you look to the Pope’s visit to Ireland – and I know that Pope Francis is a lot better than what we’ve had before him – but when you look to his visit, you have to ask, why haven’t they apologised? They haven’t taken accountability, they’ve never said, ‘Yes, you know what, it was endemic and it went all the way to the top, and it was wrong’. They haven’t said anything of the sort.

“Not only that, Colm O’Gorman from Amnesty International made the most important point I’ve heard about the Church’s reaction. He said that with one stroke of a pen, the Catholic Church could do more to safeguard the rights of children than anyone else on the planet. All they have to do is say ‘mandatory reporting’ – if there’s any kind of issue, it should be reported right away to the authorities. And yet they don’t do that. Why? You have to ask yourself, until they do that, are they even taking this seriously at all?”

The Pope’s planned visit comes at an interesting time in Ireland, with the country embracing a more liberal outlook. Even rural areas voted to legalise same-sex marriage. But would people endorse repealing the 8th Amendment in the same way?

“It was interesting,” muses Eleanor, “because with the marriage referendum, I thought it hadn’t a hope of passing. I just I couldn’t believe it when it did – and it turned out that the rural vote in favour was incredibly strong. I think it’d be great to see that kind of compassion again if there is a referendum to repeal the 8th. Having said that, I think it’s really hard to know where people stand on the issue because sometimes they’re not as open about voicing their opinion. A lot will depend on what happens with the appointment of Leo Varadkar – we’re yet to fully know what kind of policies he’ll implement or what stance he’ll take.

“But we should remember, whenever we’re absolutely in despair – and I mean I love this country don’t get me wrong, but I do despair sometimes with our tardiness on issues such as Repeal the 8th – whenever I’m in that situation, I kind of have to think to myself, ‘Hang on Eleanor, we’ve come a long way’. When I was in college, contraception was illegal. It wasn’t just hard to get or difficult to get, it was illegal. You could be put in prison for selling condoms in Trinity. I knew people who were arrested for it. Divorce was illegal too. Of course homosexuality was a criminal offence as well. So in the depths of our despair, we need to bear that in mind. We have more to do to catch up on other countries. But we’ve come a long way in a short space of time.”

Eleanor McEvoy will serve as Chairperson of IMRO for 18 months. Her new album The Thomas Moore Project will be released on July 28.