ULSTER SAYS MO!

Whether you perceive the building itself as a symbol of power or oppression, let s face it, Stormont was not originally designed to accommodate a person who has been described as tough and intellectual, (who) smokes and curses and has a habit of throwing off her shoes.
Indeed, the contrast between the current Northern Ireland Secretary Mo Mowlam and her predessesor, Patrick Mayhew, was brought into the sharpest possible focus on the day she took up her position as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. As Mo Mowlam hugged and kissed her way through Belfast city centre a woman, Mary Bell, was heard to say, She really cares. I couldn t stand Mayhew, with his airs and graces and plummy accent. He was more at home in England and he hardly ever seemed to leave Stormont Castle. A Northern Ireland Office official also was quoted as saying, Sir Patrick wasn t exactly a man of the people.
In contrast, Mo Mowlam, MP for Redcar in Cleveland since 1983, and daughter of Post Office workers Frank and Tina , was immediately identified as having street cred. Her appointment by the new Labour Prime Minister Tony Blair was widely welcomed in terms of her political commitment to Northern Ireland.
And yet, very little is known about the woman behind the public persona of Mo Mowlam. Now 47, she was married relatively recently, in 1995, to merchant banker Jon Norton, whose two children, Henrietta and Freddy, she inherited from his previous marriage. She came into politics with a degree in social anthropology and an MA and PhD in political science.
In her half-year in office, Mowlam has recommended a radical shake up in procedures on senior Civil Service appointments, outlawed the Continuity Army Council and Loyalist Volunteer Force and will be bringing forth a new emergency provisions Bill, in which there will be significant changes. Dr. Mo Mowlam also is currently participating in nearly-all-party talks in the Six Counties, a breakthrough which has already assured her of a place in any chronicle of Irish history during the twentieth century.
This interview took place in her office in Stormont Castle. Also present was her press assistant, Neil Mulholland, who tape-recorded the proceedings.

Joe Jackson: On the day you arrived to take over as Secretary of State, one observer noted that you differ from your predecessors, in that, only hours after being appointed, you hopped on a plane and came to Northern Ireland, which showed you really wanted the job. Did you?
Mo Mowlam: I came straight over because you don t do this job in Westminster. You have to be on-the-ground in Northern Ireland, talking to people. And I wanted to make it clear to people that it is their future, their lives. Whether or not the Peace Process works though, back in May we didn t know we d have one is up to them. And I did want the job because I d worked at it for two years, in opposition. I wanted it because it is a real job, involving real people s lives, life or death for some.
The same observer suggested that your predecessor, Sir Patrick Mayhew, was happier staying in Stormont and away from the people. Did you make a conscious decision to do the opposite?
(laughs) No. That s me. What drives me politically is people. That s what it s all about. So, in that sense, I try to get out at least once a week to talk to ordinary people. I was doing something last weekend and I realised I hadn t seen any old people or young people all week, because my life doesn t include pensioners or babies unless I go out and meet them. It s quite a humbling experience.
Is it true that Labour Party image-makers wanted you to drop the Mo and use your full name, Marjorie?
Yes. But they gave up! They wanted to call me Marjorie , not Mo , because they thought I d have more gravitas!
Even so, you have been described as being tough and intellectual, a person who smokes and curses and is given to throwing her shoes off. The latter, I see, is true! What about the rest of that description?
I ve stopped smoking!
For health reasons?
I d given up at Christmas. The kids just nagged me so I thought I d do it. Then I had the benign tumour (points to head, which is covered by scarf). I didn t really have a chance to start again. If I can get through this first six months without a fag then I can do it, giving up.
Being Secretary of State in Northern Ireland right now isn t exactly the job one would opt for in order to remain stress-free or stay off the cigarettes, is it?
(Laughs) I ve been known to have to have a whiskey or two! But, no, it s not stress-free. Yet the other aspect to giving up cigarettes is that in this job you do need a hell of a lot of energy. Cigarettes don t give you that and I was getting whooost (makes deflated noise) on a pack a day. And I just gave it up. I m amazed I did. Because I ve gone through times where I ve been addicted to nicotine and nicorettes! It s been hell. Yet, in terms of stress, I find that if you just go home and watch something stupid on television that can be relaxing.
Something stupid like EastEnders, for example? At the recent Labour Party Conference, Nick Nolan referred to its Oirish edition as a stupid programme which could have a downright dangerous effect.
I thought it was gross. Very silly. Yet I m not a great telly watcher. I m not back home until a certain time in the evening, so EastEnders is too early for me. I m home in time to see things like Men Behaving Badly, Absolutely Fabulous, those kinds of things.
As well as re-runs of Yes, Minister?
Yes! And re-runs of Black Adder. Freddy, who s ten, is totally addicted to Black Adder! I don t think he understands a word of it. Because I ll go in and say, Darling, darling, darling and he ll laugh and I don t think he knows why! But EastEnders, I wouldn t see too often, though the kids watch it all the time.
Do you accept that the perspective on the Irish presented recently by EastEnders was patronising?
I don t think it was an honest appraisal of the republic. In fact, I think it was a gross misrepresentation because what I found, when we d go to Cork for holidays, is that you do have a vibrancy and a confidence in the republic that I believe Mary Robinson had a lot to do with. There is a new spirit there and a feeling that we are proud to be Irish.
Do you think that Mary McAleese would be a good replacement for Mary Robinson?
Neeeheeehaaah!
Do I get a rough translation or sub-titles to go with that answer?
(Laughing) No, you get, I m sure that the people in the republic will choose somebody that they want. It would be very politically unwise for me to name anyone.
But there are plenty of political ramifications in the choosing of an Irish President.
There are. But I will work with whoever gets it. It might be a handicap or a help. It may not be helpful.
But it is increasingly becoming a political issue that relates specifically to Northern Ireland. Derek Nally, for example, confronted Mary McAleese because of her alleged sympathies for Sinn Fein.
It is political. But it s in the Republic and it s not a decision I should, or would, comment on.
Do you have any comment to make on the suggestion that the leaking of documents from the Department of Foreign Affairs, in relation to Mary McAleese, has damaged the Northern Peace Process?
I ll stay out of that one. Leaks are a dangerous thing.
Let s go back to the question of cultural influences, specifically your own. Were you influenced, say, by music?
Yes. I m a child of the 60s. Dylan, Hendrix, The Stones, that s what I grew up on.
Were you upset when Dylan sang for the Pope?
(Laughs) No. But I saw the picture! Yet it is a difficult thing for our generation to realise we have gotten here and are doing things like that. I look at me and at Tony (Blair) and think We re running the country! Goodness! So Bob Dylan playing for the Pope? As he would say, the times are changing. I wasn t very impressed by Dylan s holy period, though. I prefer the earlier stuff.
Politicians, from Clinton to Dick Spring, claim Dylan influenced their political ideology. Did that music influence you in this way?
It did. Because I came into politics on single issues, on a Civil Rights basis. As in anti-nuclear, women s rights. That s what brought me into this arena, that s how I became party political when I went into university.
Do you think music can play a similar role in relation to Northern Ireland right now? In terms of breaking down cultural barriers?
I think it can.
Such as U2 playing here in Belfast recently?
Yes. And I couldn t go! I had to go to a dinner. I was very annoyed that I couldn t go to see U2. The last time I managed to get to see a concert was when I took one of the kids to see Oasis. But Pink Floyd was the last concert that Jon and I went to.
Presumably when they were reunited, not back in the 1960s!
Of course! But, yes, I think music can break down cultural barriers. I just had the American ambassador in here and we were talking about Clinton s visit and I ve no doubt that concert was a young person s event. That was young people thinking This is where we can go in the future. And left to young people, I believe they would live alongside each other quite happily. Yes, we ve had violence. But I think the majority of them would live together much easier than older generations and music is part of that.
So do you think those in the positions of power should be looking at the possibility of putting on cross-border concerts, whatever?
Yes. And I m looking at trying to do all that. And hope I can. We ve also talked to various promoters about trying to get more entertainment in Belfast, along those lines, at various locations including Stormont. As in having gigs in the grounds of Stormont.
Are you also looking at the prospect of getting more international acts to recognise the option of Belfast as a venue when they do world tours, for example?
Yes. That s there too. But the problem is that promoters tell me it is not cost-effective, at the moment, because there is not enough demand. But if we get more movement, there will be the necessary demand.
As in what? Cheap, or even free train rides from other parts of Ireland to Belfast, which would be subsidised by promoters, musicians, a major benefactor, whoever?
That s something else I am looking into but I haven t got anything specific on this, yet. But, yes, communication between North and South would make a huge difference to young people. And if your readers have any ideas on what we could do to increase co-operation, so people could come to these gigs in Belfast, or whatever, then maybe this can become a Hot Press initiative. I m open to any suggestions in terms of this issue.
And all this would be purely in order to let young people inter-connect at a fundamental level, culturally and, you hope in an apolitical sense?
Yes. Because part of what we are dealing with in terms of the Peace Process in Northern Ireland is bottom-up. And if it comes from the bottom, and grows, then we are in business.
Do you believe that a decisive ingredient in political change right now is the fact that the people running countries such as America, Ireland and Britain are products of the 60s, who kept their idealism intact?
Government is about keeping your ideals and aiming for them, but it s also about operating pragmatically in terms of what you can deliver. If I was totally idealistic I wouldn t achieve nowt. Yet I do, on a pragmatic level, know what is possible. If I was idealistic I wouldn t get anywhere in the current talks. This is where we re going, I ve decided! That d be hopeless. So you have to have those ideals to drive you. But apart from that you have to be pragmatic.
You strive to retain that balance?
Yes. It s the good old Marxist sense of the nature of the contradiction.
Do you think part of the problem in Northern Ireland is the fact that both sides tend to define themselves as victims?
Being a trained social anthropologist, I think it s an error to make gross generalisations about any culture or any people.
Maybe so, but at the Brighton Labour Conference you spoke about the sheer rawness of the sectarian hatred and bigotry you encountered in Northern Ireland. A lot of the time, isn t it a case of many people viewing themselves in a victim mode and lashing out?
I d need to think what we mean by victim mode . There is a dependency on needing external forces to blame and that is happening in Northern Ireland. When I get questioned by people in the Talks Process, they say, Back in 1921, this happened, that happened and I say, Yes, all that is absolutely true. But what we re dealing with is now. And it s you, around this table, that are going to make decisions, with the consent of the people. So it is that mind-set we ve got to change. And that s very hard.
In fact, it s people here, one community-to-another, who will change things. That s why so much of the cross-community stuff is so important. That s where it s got to work. And it must filter up to the politician.
The monarchy is probably the oldest symbol of Britain. You once suggested the Queen should move out of Buckingham Palace. Do you stand by that?
When I was Shadow Heritage Secretary, I said the Queen should move out because I wanted them to have a modern palace and make themselves representative of where we were at, rather than something that was representative of the past. That s still what I believe. And I hope that when one of the others take over i.e. Charles that he does begin to adapt to what Blair represents as part of our culture. If he can do that, then they have a future.
To many people, the fact that the Queen is out of touch was never more savagely highlighted than during the week after the death of Diana. The Royal Family obviously misread the nation s grief while Blair, on the other hand, seemed to capture the mood precisely. Do you agree with commentators who suggest that this moment marked a sea-change in terms of the public perception of the Royals?
I didn t see all that happen at the time because I was in Spain and it wasn t until my office phoned five days later, and asked if I wanted to go to the funeral, that I knew she was dead! I was stuck on the side of a Spanish mountain. But there definitely has been a sea-change in Britain. There is a change in terms of a desire to move forward, a desire to take risks, a desire for change itself. I don t understand it, completely. I thought we d only just win the election, scrape in. I had no idea of the rout that would come. And from what I learned after the event, I think Di Lady , Princess , whatever she s called represented some of that same feeling. But the Di phenomenon was much more complex. She was an underdog, badly treated, there was a whole host of different feelings involved.
Could you elaborate on the claim of sheer rawness of the sectarian hatred and bigotry that you made at the Labour Conference?
I just think it is obscene that the events in Harryville can take place, that people get picketed for going to practice their religion. And this is the end of the 20th century. A hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, fine, but not now. And if you go in the wrong pub you get kicked to death. It s those kinds of events I find shocking. And I think it is difficult for people to grasp that this kind of inhumanity and appalling behaviour, from one human being to another, goes on.
Did you see the same kind of sectarian hatred on the faces of that group of women outside the Connswater shopping centre, in East Belfast, who were shouting traitor at Tony Blair, presumably because he d shaken the hand of Gerry Adams?
Yes. And I was stuck in the middle of it, holding onto two belts of RUC men, going through it all.
Were those accusations being screamed at you, too?
Yes.
At moments like that, do you despair or does it steel you further?
It shows me again the depth of the anger and the frustration and the fear of what change brings. And the not knowing what the other community stands for. But it was, in fact, very few people.
(Press assistant interjects) Only about 20 or 30, and outside that cordon of protesters there were hundreds of people.
(Addresses press assistant) Would you like to say it was DUP-inspired, so it doesn t come from me? (pause) He s not going to. I ll say it. I believe it was not spontaneous. There were two or three posters with exactly the same words on, and so that had been premeditated. Some of the officers said to me that they think it was closer to the DUP than anyone else.
Are you saying that such a protest is not representative of the overall response to your efforts in Northern Ireland?
I don t think it is. I go into east Belfast, and west Belfast quite frequently and maybe I ll get one abusive person in every 40. And part of that is sheer frustration and anger, their believing that this course we ve adopted is wrong. They may be right. The loyalist paramilitaries may return to violence. The IRA may return to violence. But that, as yet, is not known. And I think, on balance, having got an unequivocal ceasefire on both sides, we keep going with what we ve got.
The Garvaghy residents also had a letter of protest for Tony Blair that day, which they had some problems getting to him.
I m sure the Garvaghy residents will be as angry as the Loyalists at Connswater shopping centre. The extreme elements on both sides are angry when they feel that their rights have been violated.
Can you do anything to appease the anger of the Garvaghy Road residents, in particular.
In terms of the Garvaghy Road residents I was very sad because I liked them and I wanted to work again with them but they did feel betrayed, no two ways about it. I did all I could and, in the end, I had no other course of action. But I will try again next year, if they will talk to me. They may not. But we will have the Parades Commission in place. We hope to get that legislation through.
There was a suggestion that if the Parades Commission is to restrict the right of Orange marchers , then Unionists such as David Trimble want other aspects of cultural identity in Northern Ireland to be part of that remit, as in banning GAA matches on Sunday, and so on. Was that ever an option?
The Parades Commission is focused, obviously, on parades and trying to accommodate the different viewpoints to reach a conclusion. And the Parades Commission is an independent body. But there was some concern that just calling it Parades Commission was somehow an attack on Unionism. And you have to be so careful in Northern Ireland to make sure that you are not attacking either side, gratuitously. So what we ve done is to say that we ve put something in the Bill, as yet unactivated, which says that if there are other events that need looking at, we ll consider whether the Parades Commission should have its remit extended to do that.
Now the Irish immediately go Ah! GAA! but that is not on the face of the Bill, so it is not going to be activated, immediately. And I need to be very clear that it doesn t impact on events like that. Even though there have been questions raised about stewarding of GAA events, the questions have been minimal ones. But it would be very unfortunate to bring them into a Parades context. I m well aware of the fears and I think they are unfounded.
There also was the suggestion that if you do make such concessions to Unionists it might validate Dublin s fears of a dilution of Dr. Mowlam s commitment to implement fully the recommendations of the North Report on mechanisms for dealing with disputed parades.
We have honoured that. I don t know any suggestion that we haven t.
It was suggested in The Irish Times.
Is that Frank Millar at it again? What was he going on about?
The gist of it was that if you did make concessions to placate unionists, this may indicate that your commitment to the North Report is less than 100%.
As nothing will be done on this, and given that what we ve got to do in the next year is focus on parades, it is unfounded criticism. It needs to be activated by me, before it applies. And I do want to do some more looking into it because I don t want it to become messed up with this one issue. If we get into tricolours, paving stones, Union Jacks, and so on, then it s just going to become confrontational and counter-productive.
The Parades Commission paper has The Orange Order described as draconian , claiming it treats their culture with contempt. On the other hand you had ten nationalist groups pulling out, claiming it wasn t independent.
I knew it would always be difficult, because both sides have serious doubts about it and I hoped we d managed to steer a path that gives everybody faith and the belief that having an independent commission was a better option than going through what we went through last year and the year before. The ten nationalist groups pulled out before we published the commission and I was very sad that they did, before they considered the Bill.
But they believed it would not be an independent commission.
They ought to give it a go, in my opinion.
There are those who feel you could go further in appeasing the fear of nationalists, many of whom feel you have betrayed them by not backing the call for an independent enquiry into Bloody Sunday. Will you support such calls?
We re looking into Bloody Sunday and there was a lot of information given by the Irish Government to John Hume. I m studying that information and I will give my response when I have done that.
Have you incurred the wrath of Unionists as a result of your proposals to shake-up senior positions in the Northern Ireland civil service, which is decidedly sectarian?
The Unionists themselves are very abusive about the civil servants. I even went out to protect the person who organised the Blair visit. He was criticised for putting Tony into an east Belfast shopping mall after the handshake. And this is part of what we were referring to earlier, in terms of a dependency culture, as in beating up on civil servants, verbally, for the sins of Northern Ireland, which I think is very unfair, because they work hard, in an impossible situation. You can criticise them for being distant, and not communicative enough, but they ve managed a difficult situation and what we have to do is open it up. Yet you can understand, over years of living in the Troubles, a lot of people do close up and live in their own community, say, ain t nowt to do with me, Guv . The civil servants have looked inwards and managed the system relatively well.
But they ve also locked out Catholics.
They ve locked out Catholics, locked out Unionists, locked out everybody. But the locking out of Catholics is across the board. It s the civil servants, the Lord Lieutenants, the Sheriffs. The structure, we can t blame these buggers for. But what you re arguing about is a political lead, which is what we need. And that s why I ve had the problem with the civil servants, the odd leak. And it s the problem with the RUC. The RUC is 93% Protestant. Catholics won t join because they get threatened. Do we blame the RUC?
The other day, when they were protecting us against Loyalists, you realise the contradictions the RUC lads are going through. So yes, it can be criticised for being closed off and change has to happen, absolutely, in a number of institutions. But you can t change things in 24 hours. Just as we ve got to build up confidence in the Talks Process, so too we ve got to build up confidence in this area. Four-out-of-ten people here are employed in the public sector. If we start changing, we re going to have knock-on effects we have to deal with too. Increased unemployment. And the Unionists aren t pushing for the shake-up. It s me pushing. Everybody else wants to stay where they are.
In relation to the Talks Process you caused some consternation recently when you said it was not consent by numbers you were working towards.
I said that consent is the basic principle by which we work. And what we mean by consent is the wishes of the majority, North and South, freely and concurrently given. Consent is crucial. That is the safeguard to the Unionists that nothing will happen without their agreement. That is a plus. But in terms of the numbers quote, someone had asked me a 51% - 49% question (as in what will happen when the population in Northern Ireland is 51% Catholic and 49% Protestant.) Does that count? And I said Yes it does, because that s a majority vote. But if we look at it solely in that way we re just building up a 51%-49% problem for ourselves. What I want is a wider consensus. Unless we get greater consensus we re still going to have trouble out there.
You earlier articulated your fear that the paramilitary cease-fires may be broken. You ve outlawed the Loyalist Volunteer Force and Continuity Army Council, but there are rumours that the IRA may take action against the CAC, particularly its own defectors who have joined the break-away group. If they do, won t the IRA be breaking its stated commitment to the Mitchell Principles?
I ll wait till that actually happens. But I don t believe either ceasefire is about to break now. I believe that both are pretty solid. Yet not necessarily, ad infinitum. The question is actually unanswerable, because what it depends on is where we go in the next couple of months, in the Talks Process.
The Continuity Army Council doesn t care where the talks go. In fact, they don t want the talks going anywhere.
True.
And they have re-committed themselves to the armed struggle. So are they a major threat?
They are a threat. Splinter groups are a threat. Where there are people murdering and maiming and bombing, we will continue to be as tough on them as we have been in the past. That is our job as the Government and I will do that.
But you asked me a specific question about whether the IRA are going to do that to the CAC. I don t know, and I ve adopted a position that I won t answer hypotheticals until I actually know it s happening, because then it runs as Mowlam Threatens IRA Position at The Talks because . . . It is fair to say that when we get splinter groups and they are much smaller we will be very tough on them. But we will do all we can to move the talks forward, which means giving both sides confidence that the Process is going to deliver for them. That is the battle.
Doesn t this also apply to punishment beatings. Any paramilitary group that indulges in this kind of behaviour will also be breaking their commitment to the Mitchell Principles, won t they?
Yes.
And will you also move, as hard as possible, against any violation of the Mitchell Principles at that level?
Yes.
Is that a hesitant yes ?
That s a hesitant yes only in the sense that the wording on Mitchell Six actually says that the leaders will do everything they can to dissuade people from punishment beatings. So I don t want to mislead your readers, to suggest that if there is a punishment beating then that automatically means that the IRA or whoever are out. If Sinn Fein, as part of the Talks Process, having signed up to Mitchell Six, are seriously doing all they can to stop them and there aren t any beatings taking place at the moment then I think we have to recognise that.
Look at the situation before. The Loyalists did all they could to stop the punishment beatings and they stayed in the Talks. They had numerous beatings and they didn t get thrown out. We have to, in a non-hypocritical way, treat everybody the same. It s difficult. But if I get a commitment from the IRA or from the PUP or UDP that they are doing all they can, then I believe them, unless I have evidence to the contrary.
Do you harbour hopes that Paisley and the DUP will, eventually join the Talks Process?
I hope he will because his voice will be much more powerful in the talks, than outside. And I think it s sad that he s on the outside, not participating
You have said he will lose the opportunity to influence events if he does not join.
Yes.
Did you also once tell him to piss off when he intruded on your conversation with one of his colleagues during a House of Commons division?
(Laughing loudly) Mmmmm (Gesture of zipping lips closed). Sometimes my language is well, I have controlled my language for you!
Blair apparently once described his critics in the Scottish Labour Party as unreconstructed wankers . Do you want to name one person you ve met in Northern Ireland who is an unreconstructed wanker ?
(Points to interviewer, laughing.) You re totally unreconstructed!
Let s get back to serious issues! Do you agree with the Irish Minister for Justice, John O Donoghue who, on the day this particular round of talks began, said: A ray of light shines across the entire island of Ireland and will lift the hearts of all its inhabitants ?
Yes. But people are cautious. Those who were committed to the last cease-fire, and to 74 - 75, and have been at it for a long time, it is harder for them. But I have to say that when we got Sinn Fein into the talks a civil servant said to me and he is not one of the most colourful, vibrant civil servants! I ve worked for this for eight years. And I said Yes, you have. And if someone like him feels that close, even though he s not one to express his emotions that way, then there was a shaft of light that day.
Has your commitment to that ray of light cast shadows over your home life? There was the suggestion, before you accepted the appointment, that it would, for example, take you away from your husband and the children.
The kids would say they see less of me. I said to my girl, I m sorry I wasn t home in relation to the week before last, and she said Well, I ve seen you on the telly. I thought, I don t like that as if that should be her only point of contact with me. That hurt. So in that sense it has affected me. But my husband s tolerance is stunning. He cooks, shops, looks after the kids. So I think we re okay. He also understands why I have to do this both for me, myself, and as a member of the Labour Party. So I think he s learned to survive by himself. But we protect time carefully, protect the odd weekend. And I get very determined for the plane to take me back! The worst thing, and I found this happened the night before last, when I did get back, though it s a silly thing I realised I am now a bit marginal to them.
Marginal to your family? Why?
Well, we re all one still, but they re used to me not being there. And how I realised that was because of the CD player! Usually I choose what to put on and go and do it. But this time I realised, from all the CDs that were stacked up, what they were listening to and that I wasn t up-to-speed on that. H. was putting something on and I wanted to be part of it and I said, Who s that? Is it Oasis or Jemora, what s his name?
Jamiroquai?
Jamiroquai! But she goes Oh no! and I thought I m not up-to-speed on this. That did affect me. You wouldn t notice any difference. They re still as loving and I m still as happy. Do you understand what I mean? I just felt well, excluded, by that.
Nevertheless, as compensation, in relation to the Talks, you have said we could have an agreement by Christmas. Though Bertie Ahern has said this is a little optimistic.
Yes. We originally said May but, in answer to a question that this could be too soon I said, No, you could do it by Christmas, if there was the will to do it. And that, in the end, is the determining factor. If the will is there, around that table we could do it. And the last few days have been very productive. People have been talking!
But is May rather more realistic in terms of an agreement being reached in the Stormont negotiations?
Of course. But I don t want to say definitely May. I want to keep people encouraged, say keep going. Some of these people have been around that table for two years with nothing concrete on it. The frustration of that is great for many of them. So I just want to keep that forward motion, that dynamism there. n