The Hot Press Interview with Gino Kenny

Until recently very few people would’ve been able to pick Eugene “Gino” Kenny out of a line-up.

From a local Neilstown family of five boys and two girls, he’s been a political activist since the early 1990s. He was elected as to South Dublin Council in 2009 and played a leading role in the recent protests against water and household charges.

But up until a few weeks ago, the only time the unassuming 44-year-old had made any kind of media stir was when he hoisted the Palestinian flag, at the moment it became clear that, after two failed attempts, he’d finally been elected to the Dáil, in the General Election of February 2016.

At the start of December 2016, the People Before Profit TD – who sees himself as a “shop steward on a factory floor” rather than a politician – was catapulted to the front pages when he introduced a Bill on making cannabis legal in Ireland for medicinal purposes. The Bill was backed by all political parties, and will now progress to the committee stage in the Dáil.

This was an astonishing achievement for a rookie TD: the government generally refuse to back bills put forward by members of the opposition. Their acquiescence was doubtless influenced by the fact that some members of the wider cabinet had publicly backed the idea of making cannabis available for medicinal purposes during recent Hot Press interviews, including John Halligan, Finian McGrath and junior finance minister Eoghan Murphy. So now, Gino Kenny has an unprecedented national profile. He also, as it turns out, has a lot to say.

Jason O’Toole: Did you grow up in your constituency?

Gino Kenny: Yeah. We moved from Islandbridge flats in 1979 to Neilstown. I’ve been there ever since.

What did your parents do for a living?

My ma was a lollipop woman for a long time. My Dad worked at C&C – they made Club Orange and all that. Then he did odd jobs until his death, about eight years ago. He was about 71 when he died very suddenly. Myself and my brother were in Colombia at the time. I was travelling around north South America. My dad died the day myself and my brother went on this five-day hike in a forest.

So, nobody was able to reach you?

We were in the middle of nowhere. So, when I got back, I got onto the internet and I really thought my whole family were dead because of emails saying, ‘immediately contact home’. I was afraid. I had to ring my ma. I really thought the worst. Ma said to me that my dad passed away. He took a heart attack.

It must’ve come as a big shock?

Nothing can prepare you for it. It was one of them moments: you’re in this beautiful place, you’ve high elation and the next minute you get a phone call that you’re dad’s dead. We had to get back immediately for the funeral because there was a chance we’d miss it. Long story short: we got back about a half an hour before my Dad’s funeral. It was difficult, you know?

I’m sure your father would’ve been very proud to see you elected to the Dáil.

(Smiles) He would have been very proud. My ma’s very proud and my family and all my friends, and people from where I live stop me. I think that’s what keeps me going: people saying to me that they love to see me there and it’s good that there’s a normal working person there.

What age did you leave school at?

I done the Leaving Cert in 1990. It was during the Italia ‘90 World Cup. I had more eyes on the World Cup because it was Ireland’s first World Cup. I got expelled out of school, two or three weeks before my Leaving Cert so that wasn’t good.

What did you get into trouble over?

Ah, just acting the fool. It was one of those periods in your life when you’re just being rebellious. I wasn’t nasty or anything. I rejected school and the orthodoxy of school. But looking back, we all make mistakes. I done the Leaving Cert and I’m glad I done the Leaving Cert because it gave me some sort of standard of education.

Did you get into trouble with the cops growing up?

No, not really. A few scrapes, but it was always political!

So, you’ve been dragged into a cop shop a few times?

Yeah, a few times. It was always demonstrations or strikes. It was always political. I’ve never been charged for anything.

Senator Lynn Ruane told me she got into trouble over joyriding and shoplifting. You didn’t do anything similar?

I never went that far! Any scrapes I’ve had, any cells I’ve been in – and I’ve been in a fair few at this stage! – it’s always been political.

Where you manhandled by the cops?

Oh yeah. A few times.

So, you’ve been roughed up?

Yeah, yeah. Baton charged up in Mayo, the Rossport dispute. Plenty of people got worse than I got.

Do you think the Garda go overboard with use of force?

Of course. Up in Rossport, they went over the top and plenty of other demonstrations after that the police have gone overboard, particularly with the water charges. The water charges has been a fiasco from the very start. The government’s plan is completely unwinding. I don’t want to get confident, but the end game now is in the next three months and, I think, water charges are essentially gone.

Do you think it was right that Joan Burton was held hostage inside her car by anti-water charge protestors?

The whole thing was overblown. People have a right to protest. Some of it did get out of hand. But the thing was exaggerated. Nobody wants to see things thrown at people because it’s counterproductive. But people were terribly angry about the water charges and particularly the role of the Labour Party.

Do you not think it was plain wrong to hold her hostage for three hours?

I didn’t think she was kidnapped. She was just held up. This has happened numerous times over the years with politicians. So, once nobody’s harmed or there’s no damage done to cars and all that, you know?

So Joan Burton was over the top in her criticism?

Yeah. And I think the media went overboard. The whole thing was taken out of context. But there were certain things at that protest that never should’ve happened. As I said, throwing things at people is counterproductive.

What did you do before entering politics?

I’m a carer. I got my first job in care work in 1999. I started in Cherry Orchard Hospital. It was probably the best education I got in my life. It was a tough job, but I really enjoyed it. It was mainly with elderly people. It was a fantastic experience. It shaped my own life to be appreciative of elderly people and be appreciative of your own health.

Given your experience of caring for the elderly what are your thoughts on euthanasia?

I would be supportive. I know John Halligan has a Bill about it.

He revealed plans for the Bill in Hot Press.

I know it’s very controversial in some ways, but I would be very supportive. It was one subject that when I got elected I wanted to highlight.

Could you see yourself helping someone end their life?

Yeah. I think I would, yeah. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a film called Who’s Life Is It Anyway? It stars Richard Dreyfuss.

Yes. He portrays a quadriplegic, with no semblance of a normal life, who wants to die.

I’d recommend anybody to see it. It’s a brilliant film. I saw that and I said, ‘You know what? If somebody wants to die – even though it’s probably very difficult for me to comprehend – and they feel they’ve no quality of life, I think they have a right to die’. It’s up to the person. I would be supportive of euthanasia.

Would it be something you’d consider yourself if you were facing a terminal illness?

Of course, yeah.

What type of music were you into growing up?

All sorts. I would’ve been a big fan of Queen. Around the very early ‘90s, there was a hippy stage for about probably a couple of years and then that died out. We used to have a lot of hippy clothes. But then just after that there would’ve been the dance music scene, which went on for at least a decade. I was into all sorts of music, from opera to hard techno.

You mentioned techno. Did you ever try E?

I have taken it over time. I done recreational drugs. That was back in the mid-’90s and a lot of people done them. It was one of those things that people were into. There was no getting away from it. I mean, TDs are no different from a whole section of society – you know, the drugs and alcohol they might take. I’ve seen in my own community that there’s seriously a downside to drugs as well. The social damage is incalculable. But there’s drugs in society and people will take them. That’s life.

Have you ever taken Class-A drugs?

No. I’ve never taken Class-A drugs.

So, just E and hash?

Yeah.

When’s the last time you smoked hash?

I don’t smoke and I’m very health-conscious. I’d smoke a joint the odd time. The last time I smoked a joint was probably about four months ago. If people want to smoke a joint, it’s their business.

Ten years ago Brian Cowen told me he smoked marijuana, which caused huge controversy. Have we moved on from that?

Them days are old now, you know? We’ve grown up a little bit. It’s not a cardinal sin because you had a bleeding joint. The world has moved on.

You must be very proud to see your cannabis bill pass the first stage?

Yeah. I didn’t realise the impact it was going to have. The emails that I’ve got from people that it will affect, or are using cannabis, is just extraordinary. Amazing. Hopefully, at the end of this process, medical cannabis will be in some form legalised in Ireland. It will give people an option.

Was there any personal experience that inspired you to pursue this Bill?

A family from Clondalkin contacted me just before I got elected and their daughter has Dravet Syndrome. I’d never heard of Dravet Syndrome, but it’s an aggressive form of epilepsy. That family weren’t using it, but there’s an oil called CBD oil, a cannabis-based oil, that’s used for treating Dravet Syndrome.

There was a case study in the US with a child named Charlotte Figi, who took cannabis oil for Dravet Syndrome.

It was cutting Charlotte Figi’s seizures down by 90 percent. So, I met that family and they said to me, ‘If you do get elected, can you try to highlight the issue?’ I said, ‘Yes’.

Vera Twomey from Cork has a daughter, Ava, with Dravet Syndrome. She’s called on the government to legalise cannabis for medicinal purposes.

Once I met Vera in the Dáil with her husband Paul, in May, I knew something had to be done to alleviate the immediate suffering of her child. And the more I read, about MS and cancer, I said, ‘God! There’s something in this’.

What’s your view on legalising marijuana?

It’s for another day and another debate. But I do believe in decriminalisation of cannabis.

President Obama pointed out that in some States in the US possession of cannabis is legal and in others it could get you a 20-year prison sentence. He envisages it being completely legalised across all of America.

I think that’s the way it’s going. I think 30 states in the US have medical cannabis. I don’t know how many states have legalisation. It’ll take time, but I would see decriminalisation and then probably legalisation. But I think if we put a Bill forward now for legalisation of cannabis it wouldn’t have a hope.

But what’s your own personal view?

My own personal view is that it should be legalised.

Would you be in favour of legalising other drugs?

It’s a very nuanced argument and it’s good that we’re having it in Ireland. The war on drugs has been a complete failure and we’ve got to look at a different model. The best model – not perfect by any means – is the decriminalisation of all personal drugs, like what’s happening in Portugal. So, if somebody has it for their own personal use – regardless of the drug – they should not be criminalised.

What are the benefits?

In Portugal, over the last 16 years – because they’ve decriminalised a certain amount of drugs for personal use – the amount of drug deaths has gone down. Ultimately, it’s about trying to save people from drug addiction; and it’s about saving their lives. For some people, I know that’s very difficult and people go, ‘We need to go to war on drugs!’ But I think even the police say, ‘The approach is wrong.’

Would you be in favour of injection centres?

I would be, yeah.

Have you any friends who’ve died from drugs?

Oh, yeah. I’ve seen it in my own community; I’ve seen friends. The social damage that drugs do is pretty appalling. You might think, because of that, ‘Okay, we need the war on drugs’. But it’s been a failure. If something has failed, you’ve got to look at a different approach.

In your youth, how important was chasing women and sex for you?

(Laughs) I suppose, as a teenager, you wanted to get out there and explore. It wasn’t the most important thing. I wanted to get on and do a bit of travelling.

How old were you when you lost your virginity?

(Roars laughing) You mad man! I think I was 19. It was never something that I was consumed by. I wanted to play football and travel. It was probably a big deal in some way but it was never one of those things that I had to have as much sex as possible. That never crossed my mind. Are you in a relationship now?

Yeah. We’re in a relationship now four years. I’m very happy. It’s going well. It’s the longest relationship I’ve ever been in. For a long time I never went out. I was single.

Growing up, did you question your own sexuality?

No, no. I mean, each to their own.

What’s your take on the so-called Swedish Model that the government is trying to push through to make it illegal for men – or women – to pay for sex?

I don’t think prosecuting men is the way to go. I just don’t see how logically you can actually do that, you know? And driving prostitution and sex workers underground, I think, makes it worse. In some countries – I think it’s in Germany – the sex workers have unions.

What about legalisation of prostitution?

I don’t know, to be honest with you. I’d have to really think about that.

But what’s wrong with two consenting adults doing what they like together?

There’s nothing wrong with it. I mean, in some countries it is legal. I’ve never actually thought of it, to say, ‘Can something like that be legalised?’ If I went round in my own head to say, ‘Yeah, it should be legalised,’ I’d say it. But I haven’t come to that conclusion. Obviously, there’s another argument that prostitution is exploitation of women. And some women get into prostitution just because of money. You’ve got to have a society where women wouldn’t have to turn to prostitution to earn money. But if a woman wants to do that, then that’s her choice.

I’m guessing you’re in favour of repealing the Eighth Amendment?

Oh, yeah, of course.

Would you encourage a woman to have an abortion?

Ah, no. It’s the last resort. It’s probably the hardest decision a woman can make. It’s up to the woman to make that decision. For some people that’s very difficult in this country to accept and it’s a very emotive issue. But I think we’ve become more liberal.

I’m sure you know constituents who were forced to go to England for an abortion?

I know some people who have gone over and it was a very difficult decision for them. But they didn’t have any regrets – they knew that it was the right decision.

What is the man’s role in all of this?

The man has a role, yeah. If you’re in a relationship and your partner and you have made that decision – ‘It’s not the time’ – I think that’s a decision that’s best made jointly. But if your partner wants to say, ‘I don’t want a pregnancy at this moment’ – I respect that. I think that it’s ultimately up to the woman to choose and that’s what this debate is about: it’s the woman’s body you’re talking about. If she says, ‘Regardless of how hard this decision is, I can’t go through with this pregnancy’, I think that’s very legitimate.

The government is talking about funding the repatriation costs for the foetus to be brought back to Ireland for women who have an abortion in the UK?

Well, that’s pretty outrageous. I mean, talk about an Irish solution for an Irish problem! People should have the choice to have the termination here rather than something like that. That’s quite insulting to somebody who’s in that terrible situation.

Should Pope Francis be welcomed to Ireland?

I have no personal issue. He’s quite liberal compared to the previous Pope. A lot of people are still Catholic here. If people want to welcome the Pope, I’ve no problem with it.

Would you have a problem with Donald Trump visiting Ireland?

Oh, yeah. He really is a maniac. He’s a very dangerous individual. He’s probably one of the most divisive people in the world today. He’s everything that an American President shouldn’t be. I mean, his Republican predecessors – George Bush (Jnr) and Ronald Reagan – they come from the same ilk: they’re psychopaths. Any time that man comes here there should be a huge protest against him.

Where is the Trump presidency likely to lead?

He will tone down his rhetoric because he’s President. It’s already happening. He’ll be slightly more conciliatory. The most dangerous thing about Trump isn’t Trump himself, it’s what his followers bring: confidence to other conservatives and white, nasty elements. People like UKIP and the far right in Europe – it’s given them a new lease of life. It’s very dangerous.

One of Donald Trump’s most appalling characteristics is his gross sexism – but is the Pope not equally or even more sexist, presiding over an organisation that deliberately and systematically denies women equality?

Yeah, yeah, but I wouldn’t equate Pope Francis with Donald Trump. I think that’s a bogus argument. I know what you’re saying. For women, is Pope Francis and the Catholic Church an affront to their rights? To a certain extent, yeah. But to equate Donald Trump with Pope Francis, I don’t think it’s a good parallel.

But is the attitude of the Church to women not irredeemably condescending and tokenistic?

Of course it is.

Given the opportunity to speak directly to the Pope, what would you say?

The right to choose and the woman’s bodily autonomy is probably the burning issue in Ireland. And obviously women in the priesthood. They have to accept it’s a woman’s right to choose. That would be the issue that I would speak to him about. I think the Catholic Church – because of its demise in Ireland and in other parts of the world – has to come out a bit more liberal. Now, for some people it’ll never be liberal enough. To me, the Catholic Church is not the enemy. Capitalism is the enemy.

I interviewed the Primate of All Ireland, Archbishop Eamon Martin and he stuck to the view that a homosexual act is a sin. Is that not medieval nonsense?

It is medieval. This kind of language belongs to the last century. My philosophy is very simple: live and let live. The Catholic Church has no business to say who you should live with. They’re the last people, in fact, to tell people how to live their lives.

This is something that clearly riles you.

Religion is a very personal issue. If you want to go to Mass there’s nothing wrong with going to Mass. And if you want to believe in God there’s nothing wrong with that – that’s your business. I have a problem when the Catholic Church starts dictating what you read and your sexual preferences and trying to judge you. That to me is fundamentally wrong. And that still exists in Ireland. Even though the Catholic Church’s powers have been taken away over the last 20 years, it still has a lot of power in education and hospitals. The Catholic Church should mind their own business. A priest, has no right to say, ‘Homosexuality is a sin!’

I presume that you don’t believe in the existence of any so-called God...

I don’t, Jay. I took a bit of time to come to the conclusion that there is no God. The more I think about it, the more I’m completely convinced there is no God.

So, there’s no afterlife?

No. I don’t think so. God is a creation of man – not the opposite way around. It’s a figment of people’s imagination. But I can perfectly understand why people believe in God. We live sometimes in a very difficult world and sometimes you need solace. People find solace in religion. If they want to believe in God that’s their prerogative.

Would you believe that there’s other life forms out there somewhere, like aliens and little green men?

(Laughs) I was thinking the other day: remember back in the ‘50s and ‘60s people used to see UFOs all over the place? There used to be UFO sightings everywhere. And back then, many people didn’t have cameras as they have now. Everybody in the world probably has a camera phone, but you don’t see any UFOs anymore. It’s a bit odd, isn’t it (laughs)? What I’m trying to say is, that was probably just people’s imagination going mad. Is there life on other planets? Who knows. I’d like to think there was other life forms, because earth is a dot in the universe. If we think we’re the centre of the universe, we’re madly mistaken. We’re an outpost. There has to be other life out there. Hopefully, when we meet the other life (forms) we can be friends with them.

Do you think the hugely valuable land banks that the Church are sitting on, all over Ireland, should be nationalised?

I’m not just picking out the Church: there’s a lot of land that should be nationalised that doesn’t necessarily belong to the Church, but to big business and developers. I’d have no hesitation in passing emergency legislation to nationalise land, particularly for social housing. And it would be just – take it off them, simple as that.

Will you support the ASTI strike if it goes ahead?

Of course.

Can a strike like that ever be wrong?

I don’t think so, Jay. People don’t go out and strike for the sake of it. They strike for a reason. I will always stand shoulder-to-shoulder with people that go on strike, because they’re going out for pay and conditions or a wrong-doing by their employer.

Why should the ASTI get more now than has already been agreed with the TUI and the INTO?

The crux of the ASTI strike is fair pay for a fair day’s work and equalisation. I think the ASTI teachers have a very legitimate reason for striking.

But aren’t they trying to look for more than has already been agreed?

The Lansdowne Road Agreement is dead. You’ve seen it with other public sector workers. They’re going to have to come up with some other agreement.

Is it right that children are to be treated as pawns in a game of chicken between the ASTI and the Government?

If it’s anybody at fault, it’s the government. But they’re not pawns. I think you’ll find that most children in secondary schools would be supportive of the teachers. Nobody’s asked their opinion. I think the vast majority of students would say, ‘Our teachers should get the same amount of money as their other colleagues’. I think somebody should ask the students.

But how is a strike that closes secondary schools good for the disadvantaged people you represent – who arguably need education to work for them more than anyone else?

We don’t want to see any schools shut down. As I said before, the teachers don’t want to go on strike for the sake of it, but they’re going out on strike because of their profession, because there’s a lot of young people who will think twice: ’Will I go into the teaching profession if I’m getting less than my colleagues just because it’s discrimination?’ This is for not only the teaching profession but also the students and the whole education system. There’s more of an argument going on than just equal pay: it’s about the educational system and how the profession is going to be run.

The accusation has been made that People Before Profit – and indeed other parties on the left – really want conflict more than they want progress, stability or prosperity.

It’s rubbish! It’s red-bait.

Does the economic damage being caused by a strike form any part of the consideration?

Teachers don’t want to go out on strike. It’s up to the government to solve the issue of equal pay. The government has to cave on this issue, because there will be more and more strikes in the public sector, followed by the private sector as well. There’s a pay apartheid going on and that has to be addressed. People put their heads down for a long time because of the economic crisis. The crisis is essentially over. We’re not in the depths of it anymore. Whether it’s public sector workers or private sector workers, they’re not looking for huge increases. They’re looking for a bit more money and that’s fair enough.

Did People Before Profit/Socialist Workers Party support Brexit?

Yes. We did support it. Some of the followers of the exit campaign – the likes of Ukip and the Conservative party – wanted Brexit for a very different, and very loaded, right wing argument about immigrants. But there was another narrative, which was lost sometimes: about the power of the European Union and its corporative structure. I would have huge problems with the corporate structure of the European Union. And you’d look at what’s happened in Ireland where debt was put onto ordinary people by European banks – and that’s the reason why.

Would you like to see a referendum here about leaving the EU?

If you had a referendum in Ireland, three-quarters would say, ‘We want to stay’. In some ways, it would be loaded by the narrative of too many immigrants and that’s not what we’re about. We believe in open borders. Obviously, a lot of people would see that the European Union has been quite progressive in Ireland. To a certain extent, that’s true. But over the last couple of decades, it has been less progressive.

So, would you like to see Ireland leave the EU?

Europe is good, and co-operating is good, and working together for the greater good is good. But the European Union has taken a new façade of corporate structures and dictating to people – and that’s not the European Union that most people signed up to. It’s becoming less friendly towards nation states. But if you had a referendum in this country I don’t think it would pass to leave the union.

But what’s your own view?

My personal view? I think in the future we’ll probably have to leave.

Is that not to ignore the fact that the European project has been the basis for maintaining peace all across Europe since the end of the Second World War – and that, with wars breaking out all over the world, this is a far more important consideration than anything that might be gained in the context of Brexit?

It’s a fair point, in some ways. But I think the European Union over time has become a monolith and a capitalist corporate structure that I couldn’t support. And militarily as well. I think the European Union has put the tentacles out that we want to be part of a European army. And the militarisation of the European Union is very regressive. And obviously European debt wasn’t the fault of working people in this country and we’re made to pay for that. We bailed out the European banking system – and that’s going to take a long time to heal.

But our neutrality is a joke anyway with Shannon Airport?

Yes. Shannon’s been used for decades now. It was even used during the Vietnam War. Irish neutrality is a joke.

Is it a good thing that Marie Le Pen’s position has been bolstered by the Brexit decision?

Oh God! It’s a frightening prospect. It’s very worrying that far right parties – that have a very anti-immigrant and a very populist approach – are gaining traction in Europe, not only in France but in Hungary, Germany and Austria. And obviously left wing parties and working people have to face them down.

What are you thoughts about Fidel Castro?

I would’ve grown up very inspired by the Cuban revolution, by Che Guevara and Castro. I know there’s a romantic notion of the revolution – and it was a good revolution. But the reality of the Cuban revolution was afterwards the Cuban people were quite isolated. We look towards the Cuban system for their health care system and education system. They did punch above their weight. But Castro wasn’t ultimately a socialist: he was more of a radical. He wasn’t my hero. Che Guevara was my hero. He was a good man.

Was Castro right to hold onto power in the way that he did, and not to have free elections?

No. The essence of socialism is democracy. If you don’t have democracy you don’t have socialism. There would’ve been oppression of other political parties in Cuba and that’s wrong. You have to have an open society that’s democratic.

Are you confident that there will be a Marxist socialist regime here in Ireland at some stage in the future?

(Laughs) I’d like to see a socialist Ireland that’s run by working people for the good of working people.

Who would be your ideal Taoiseach?

Not the present one.

Would you support Gerry Adams if it came to a vote that would put him in ahead of the leader of Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil?

I’m not sure. I’d obviously wouldn’t go for a Fine Gael-er or a Fianna Fáil-er as Taoiseach. But if the numbers were right, possibly. It all depends.

Where do you think you’d have stood if you’d grown up in Belfast in the 1960s and 1970s like Gerry Adams?

I’m certain I would have joined the IRA.

So you feel terrorism can be justifiable in some circumstances?

I think violence is counterproductive. But when you get caught up in that situation, I’m sure the likes of Gerry Adams, Mairéad Farrell, all them people in the republican movement, were just victims of circumstances. When you’re up against oppression, sometimes you will take up arms. The civil rights movement were the leading advocates for non-violent change in the North. And that dramatically changed when the British Army came in. People started getting arrested, Bloody Sunday happened – and then it spiralled completely into a cycle of violence. And once you get caught up in that violence, it’s very difficult to get out of. But if I was a young man seeing my community being terrorised, I’d take up a weapon.

You supported Brexit. But there’s an argument that it has the potential to inspire a return to paramilitarism, or to give momentum to the likes of the Continuity IRA?

I don’t think so. The grounds for armed struggle in the North is greatly diminished. It’s a complete dead end. The people are tired of it. They want to move on and get on with their lives.

How do you unwind?

I love going walking. It’s my passion outside of politics. I love going walking to the Wicklow Mountains. I love being in the outdoors and shooting the breeze. And then with my friends, having a few drinks – not too much! I’d love to do more dancing. Dancing’s very hard to do these days. There doesn’t seem to be many clubs these days, or maybe it’s just me.

Do you play an instrument?

No. I really wish I could play an instrument, Jay. I might have to get locked up for a few years and then I’d have no distractions (laughs)! I don’t want to get locked up, but if I did I’d do a few things: learn a language and play the banjo. But I’ve just so many things going on in my own life it’s hard to find the time. But I should do it. Maybe in the future.