The Full Hot Press Interview with Joan Burton TD

If you’ve ever needed a strong argument as to why gender quotas are needed in Irish politics, here it is: twenty four individuals have been appointed Tánaiste in the history of the State – and only four have been women. Joan Burton has the honour of being one of these trailblazers, along with Mary Harney, Mary Coughlan and Frances Fitzgerald. Burton is also one of only a handful of women, who have led an Irish political party. Forget Lucinda Creighton and Renua. The only others of significance are Mary Harney and Sinn Fein’s newly-installed Mary Lou McDonald.

Nonetheless, the 69-year-old is optimistic that Ireland is moving in the right direction. She highlights Marriage Equality and the 2015 Gender Recognition Act as two giant leaps forward.

“I brought the legislation in relation to transgender rights through the Dáil,” she says. “I was delighted to see that the Greek parliament was introducing legislation very similar to ours.”

Another vital step forward for Ireland will be repealing the Eighth Amendment. “I have never been aware of a situation where abortion has been a happy issue for anyone,” she says, “just as the loss of a baby in a miscarriage is a very unhappy event. The debate must, therefore, be realistic about the lives of women and their partners. In that context, I absolutely support a 12-week provision. It is, in fact, quite conservative.”

It’s still less than two years since Joan held high office. She is TD for Dublin West – but this is actually her first in-depth interview since she resigned as Labour leader.

Jason O’Toole: Did you always want to be a politician?

Joan Burton: No. I did a lot of different jobs before I became a politician. Politics is really interesting, fulfilling, a wonderful life. You get to work on ideas and issues that you’re passionately interested in. I would strongly recommend it. But I think politics doesn’t attract a lot of younger people, partly because some of the modern political icons – like the current President of the United States – aren’t particularly attractive.

More women are getting involved – but there aren’t many in the current Cabinet.

No. Leo Varadkar has ground to make up on that issue. I don’t think it’s acceptable. Enda Kenny is a more traditional kind of man than Leo. When I became Tánaiste, one of the discussions we had was around the lack of women in the Cabinet. When I joined the Cabinet in 2011, there were only two women ministers: myself and Frances Fitzgerald. He, in fairness to him, added an additional Fine Gael woman.

And I also appointed Jan O’Sullivan. So, the number of women around the table doubled from two to four, plus the attorney general. In Labour, we had a number of women Ministers of State too. But it’s disappointing with someone like Leo, who in fairness is very conscious of equality issues.

The Taoiseach has argued that there aren’t enough female politicians of sufficient experience to promote.

Honestly, when you look at the men in the current Cabinet and then at the women on the Fine Gael backbench, I have to say, a lot of them are as every bit as good as the men who are now gracing the Cabinet. So, I don’t accept that argument. We need to get to a point where we don’t go bean counting in every walk of Irish life: ‘Are there any women here?’ ‘How many are there here?’ ‘How many men are there?’ Men and women bring different attributes and life experiences, and they should be broadly there in equal numbers.

What do you make of Strategic Communications Unit?

I don’t think it’s necessary. Parties are funded by taxpayers in Ireland. So, if Leo wants to know the opinion of people in relation to his government and party, that should be funded out of the party’s funds.

Some pundits say Leo’s focusing too much on his image.

He’s very much a confident social media person (laughs). But, ultimately, it’s the outcomes rather than the spin that counts.

You were hammered on social media during the Jobstown controversy.

Yeah. It was very difficult. I effectively handed over my Facebook and Twitter to people working with me and gave them the messages I wanted up. I used to really enjoy Facebook. I just gave it up – other than for occasional announcements, comments, or photographs. I found the trolling was so offensive and horrible. I sometimes worry about the people who write that kind of stuff – about the impact it must have on them when you write hateful things.

Did you receive death threats through social media?

Look, it’s a casual feature of misconduct on social media: acid attacks, and death threats, and stuff like that. That’s not just my experience. The Guardian did a big study on women politicians and social media, and they found about 80 percent of the most hateful and vicious posts were in respect of women politicians. So, while male politicians were trolled, it was at a much less intense level.

Have you reported threats to the Gardaí?

Ah, no. As I said, I just took myself off it. But people I know – nieces and nephews of mine – were very upset by it, particularly younger people who just couldn’t understand why somebody would do this to another human being.

Speaking to Hot Press, the retired RTÉ broadcaster Michael Murphy – uncle of TD Paul Murphy – said the Jobstown protest was ‘unforgivable’.

Oh, well, thank him very much. I think that if Paul Murphy or some of the people there had been imprisoned in a car without toilet facilities or water for a number of hours, they would have been the first to complain about their loss of freedom. And also the restriction of their human rights in a Republic, to come and go freely. Paul Murphy can go into the Dáil any time he wants to speak on any issue. I have no idea why he felt that particular form of protest was appropriate. And I’m saying this as somebody who in my 20s was the secretary of the Anti-Apartheid movement in Ireland, where marches were organised. They were properly stewarded and people behaved properly.

Did you fear for your safety?

Yes. There were times when I was terrified. There was a point when the situation with the car was very dangerous. I moved from one car to another. And the Guards surrounded me to get me from one to the other. Karen O’Connell was with me, who’s my advisor. I felt, if the car doors got opened, where would I go? Because some of the people were unbelievably excited and banging on the car. There was a general mêlée. Both of us found it terrifying. I wouldn’t like anybody else – including Paul Murphy – to ever have to go through that.

Have you suffered nightmares over it?

Yes, I did get flashbacks and nightmares, particularly when I read in the papers that court proceedings, about a year later, were going to be instituted. Because I had done my best, as I think people do when they’re in a situation like that, to forget it.

Do you think it was right to take the case?

That was never in my remit – that was a decision for the DPP, which is independent – and I respect that independence. But what left me bewildered were questions like, ‘What was I doing in 1968?’ ‘Did I go walking a lot?’ There was an attempt to put me on trial, although I was the injured party. And interestingly, now that you mention Paul Murphy – in my experience of Paul Murphy and in the Dáil, he would jump to be in any medium where he could express his opinion. But very interestingly, he didn’t choose to go into the witness box.

Were you disappointed in the jury’s verdict?

Not at all. I have the height of respect for the jury. I was there to give evidence. All I can say is that the jury worked very hard and they came to their conclusions. And I absolutely respect their verdict.

So, would Paul ignore you in the corridors of the Dáil?

I haven’t ever sought to speak to him. But if he wants to reach out and apologise, he knows where I work.

Was there hostility towards you and Labour when you were in power?

It was very mixed. Yes, from some people, particularly people caught up in water protests, but from other people too.

What’s your biggest regret from Labour’s time in coalition?

I’ve always regretted that Labour didn’t take the Finance ministry. Labour should’ve insisted on having Finance.

You might have been given that post considering your qualifications.

I feel that the leader of the Labour Party, Eamon Gilmore, should’ve taken that job himself. I think it would’ve been better for the country. He would’ve done really well in it. He might’ve also had more potential influence in Europe on how the deal was negotiated. In particular, we may have been able to negotiate the promissory notes earlier in relation to Anglo Irish – and that would’ve taken us out of the pit.

I think Ireland made a mistake by going into a programme. The government then would argue that there was no choice, but Spain and Italy held out of going into a programme. They borrowed and they got lots of assistance.

The troika were really turning the screw.

In the lead up that election I was part of the deputations that met various exalted figures from Europe, like commissioners, the troika and the European Central Bank, who told us in polite words that Ireland’s economy was a total basket case. I do recall one of the members of the ECB delegation – I called him the tall Hungarian – asked me if we would be prepared to denationalise the ESB and other state companies. I remember saying, ‘The answer to that is no.’ And he said, ‘But I am telling you: you will have to give up everything’. That was before we went into government. I had no illusions about just how tough these guys were.

Was there tension in the Cabinet between Fine Gael and Labour?

It was a very hard working government because there was so much to do. There were some social occasions. When Michael D. was elected there was a dinner in the Áras; when the Queen visited; and particularly when President Obama visited there was the big event in College Green. That was brilliant. It beat any rock concert anyone’s ever gone to (laughs). Because Michelle Obama had absolute rock star status. But I’ve never, for instance, had a private dinner or lunch with Enda Kenny, or, indeed, any of the other ministers collectively.

Did you consider pulling the plug during your time as leader?

No. I never wanted to walk out of government.

Did it cross Eamon Gilmore’s mind?

I know when the water charges came in, Eamon Gilmore certainly contemplated it, because it was an enormous shock to Labour. Eamon was very surprised and extremely angry. So, there were a lot of discussions.

Staying the distance in government ended up costing Labour…

I think that the right thing for that 2011 government to do was to turn the country around and get people back to work. I think it would be politically naïve to expect that people would feel terribly grateful in the context of all the difficulties. But it was a national duty. The country needed to be rescued.

You led Labour into the last general election. Did you see the writing on the wall?

I knew it was going to be difficult. I would’ve preferred the election to have been held as late into spring as possible, to allow for both the days to be brighter and the weather to improve. All I ask of Leo, by the way, is that when he calls the next election, that it’s held when summertime is operating. Because people don’t want to answer the door to personal calls from politicians or canvassers when the days are dark.

Did Enda Kenny know that’s what you wanted?

Enda Kenny knew my view very well, that we should hold off until the days got brighter. And, funnily enough, if you look back at the history of Fine Gael/Labour coalitions, there was always a push by Fine Gael for an early election – and that often turned out to be the wrong call.

Were you put under pressure to resign as party leader?

No. I was happy to make the decision that I made.

Looking at the positives: what was your proudest moment in government?

I was always committed to equality for people who were gay. When I became Tánaiste, no date had been agreed and I was anxious to confirm it. I was concerned that the referendum might be delayed. And, in fact, we agreed a date. That followed on from the commitment that Eamon Gilmore gave as party leader to seek to have marriage equality for gay people. I think that was an important social achievement of the Labour Party. It was a happy achievement for everybody in Ireland. And we’re very glad to have played our part.

Alan Kelly said in his recent Hot Press interview that Fine Gael tried to hijack the marriage equality referendum to make it look like it was their idea!

When these things are achieved, inevitably they belong to everybody. So I just celebrate that we have become a broader, more inclusive society. What’s your view on Labour merging with the Social Democrats? Most of the Social Democrats are people who, if you like, fell out with, or fell away from the Labour Party. So, of course, yes. One of the biggest problems in modern European politics is that social democracy has fallen back, and extreme left wing populism has taken some of the same space that social democracy once occupied.

Would you envisage Labour doing a deal with Sinn Féin to form a left wing government?

One of the worst periods in the last Dáil was the debate in relation to what happened to people like Mairia Cahill, in terms of them being abused, by Sinn Féin. I was very disappointed that Mary Lou McDonald, a very striking and good performer, basically stood up like an old-fashioned bishop, and did absolutely nothing to help those who had suffered serious sexual abuse at the hands of people who were empowered. So, no. I mean I have never yet heard an explanation of why they stood foursquare behind Gerry Adams’ attitude to child sexual abuse.

What did you make of George Hook’s comments about rape?

They were appalling. I was glad he apologised. I just think this attitude of not respecting in full the dignity of either women or men who are affected by that situation was just plain wrong. It is not the person who’s assaulted who is at fault, clearly it is the perpetrator, and that applies to whether the assault is on a man or a woman or a child – and this whole thing that somehow or other the victim is the cause of it, it just doesn’t wash.

The #MeToo movement has highlighted a lot of shocking behaviour…

Look, there are creeps in all walks of life who feel that they can prey on women, or that they don’t need to take women’s feelings into consideration. Those kind of creeps are just around. And it’s past time that women have to put up with that kind of stuff.

Have you come across ‘creeps’ in politics?

There might have been people who had creepy ideas, but I think when there’s no response, those people creep off. When I first worked in PWC there were very, very few women in the professional side of the firm. And, to be honest, you just learn to be robust and to deal with situations before they arise.

Sexism has always been an issue.

I think Ireland joining the EU was a huge change for Irish women. And, indeed, a huge change in consciousness as well for people with disabilities. Because the EU, when we joined it, had policies in those areas which were seeking equality for people and particularly gender equality.

Was there sexism in the Dáil?

There was a lot of casual prejudice against women. Obviously, it was just very different: there were very few women. When I was elected to the Dáil at the end of 1992, it was in the aftermath of Mary Robinson’s election, and Mná na hÉireann was a concept of us moving forward at the time. But when I went in it was very much a male club. It still is to a quite a degree.

Do you think your daughter will ever throw her hat into the political ring?

I doubt it. But it’s entirely her decision.

So, will you run in the next election?

I will indeed. I’m surprised you haven’t asked me about my favourite musicians. One of whom is Neil Young. I think in my head sometimes, Jason, I’m still that 19-year-old or 28-year-old. Forever Young. I hope it stays like that.

So, what type of music do you like?

I really like a lot of traditional Irish music. I was at The Gloaming concert recently. I really enjoyed it. I love what I suppose nowadays are all the golden oldies. I was at the Leonard Cohen concert in the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham in the pouring rain, and I have to say it was one of the best days of my life. I like singers from the ’60s/’70s/’80s like Joni Mitchell, Carole King, James Taylor, and Eric Clapton.

What type of music were you into in your formative years?

When I was a teenager, the Stones and The Beatles and all that. When I lived in Africa, we lived on the university campus – this was in the 1980s – and everybody insistently played Bob Marley and the Wailers, and I loved it. Not too far from the university campus, there was a bar-come-nightclub called Vatican City. So, I used to sit in Vatican City on occasion listening to Bob Marley. Very few politicians in Ireland can say that!

You’d have been a big fan of Hot Press.

Of course I read it, especially your very distinguished former columnist Michael D.’s contributions. My office in the Dáil was close to Michael’s and I often saw the copy I suspect before even the readers of Hot Press. And I’ve read Niall’s stuff as well down the years.

Would you like to see Michael D. run for a second term as president?

I would. He has really performed exceptionally well as President – none more so than in relation to the 1916 celebrations. It’s Michael D.’s personal decision, but should he decide to offer himself for another term, he would have my full support.

Can you explain what he brings to it for you?

For one particular reason above all others – during the term of the next President, we will have the commemoration of the foundation of the State. We will also face the commemoration and the re-examination of both the War of Independence and the Civil War. I would like to see as President a person of Michael D’s inclusiveness, knowledge of history and personal understanding of what was a very difficult period in the formative years of the State. There’s no person better fitted than Michael D. to lead the Irish public in those commemorations.

Would you consider running for the presidency yourself?

No. I haven’t thought about anything like that.

Are you in favour of legalising marijuana for medicinal purposes?

Yes. I appointed Aodhán Ó Ríordáin as a Minister to try and help develop programmes of support in relation to people who have addiction issues. Aodhán did a huge amount of work on the Portuguese legislation, which allows people to have small amounts for personal possession and not be charged. I think his proposals make an awful lot of sense. I just think the overall war on drugs has failed.

The Portuguese model allows for possession of all types of drugs.

As I said, I learnt about that from talking to Aodhán. I think there’s a lot of sense in that approach. Because you don’t want people going into prison, but you do want to try and get people to get off drugs and rehabilitate.

So, basically you don’t think anybody should go to prison for possession.

Broadly, yes.

And that includes all drugs?

I’m not an expert on the area, and I’ve just been very guided, as I say, by my conversations with Aodhán Ó Ríordáin. I think what we need to try and do as a country is help people get out of addiction. That’s the priority.

Are you religious?

I consider myself to be quite spiritual. I was brought up in a family who were religious. The Church has some very unfortunate attitudes to women. And, clearly, I’ve never agreed with their attitude in relation to people who are gay. But I respect people who are very religious. We have freedom of religious expression in Ireland – that is very important. I respect people of all different faiths and of none.

Do you believe in heaven and hell?

I don’t know. I don’t have answers to that.

What about aliens?

On that, Jason, I definitely don’t know (laughs).

We’re finally going to have a referendum on the Eighth Amendment.

I’m old enough to be able to say I voted against the Eighth Amendment. So, I am absolutely in favour of its repeal. I absolutely support a 12-week provision. It is, in fact, quite conservative. I think everybody is in favour of people who want to have babies having that baby, and that baby being born healthy, and mother and baby then going on to enjoy life. Unfortunately, for some people they have difficult choices to make. I’m not going to be judgmental in relation to the decisions that women make. And can I say, as an adopted person, I’d be particularly conscious of that.

There’s an idea that if you’re adopted you should be anti-choice.

I have my own experience. And I think in relation to this referendum, we should trust women. I want to see doctors around a woman’s bed, or midwives better still, and them making the decisions that are good for that woman. And the woman making the decision that she believes is right for her.

How old were you when you discovered that you were adopted?

I always knew. It was just always said. I came to the Burtons when I was about two-and-a-half. And I was adopted by them when I was about four. That was a really lucky break in my life.

They had a child after you.

About four years later, they had Paul. As with many adopted couples when they adopt, they have a baby of their own. The reason that they adopted me was that an earlier child had died in infancy.

Did you get to meet your biological parents?

I never got to meet them. Like a lot of people, I started looking for information way back in my twenties and, ultimately, I did get a lot of information – but by then both of my birth parents were dead.

It’s still a struggle for adopted people…

The people whose rights have never been addressed by the Dáil are adopted people. It almost feels at times to me that there are enormous obstacles; that some of the people in the upper echelons of the administration – as well as some politicians – want to basically thwart and frustrate the right of adopted people to access information. The roadblocks are still there. It’s a cultural thing. People can do traces in countries like Canada, the UK, Australia and New Zealand, for over 50 years. And the sky hasn’t fallen in. And I see no reason why adopted people should be among the last group to get their full civil rights.

New legislation was supposed to be introduced.

Katherine Zappone promised that she would bring the legislation before the Dáil – but It’s still nowhere to be seen. It’s travelling on a very slow boat.

Is it true that your brother presented Bosco?

I think that’s a secret that he keeps to himself! He co-presented with Marian Richardson. In the end, RTÉ didn’t continue with Paul. There were a lot of complaints then about his Dublin accent. As his sister, there’s other complaints I’d make (laughs), but not about his accent. We were very, very close because my Mum died when I was 20. Paul’s about four years younger than me. She was in for about three years before she died from esophageal cancer.

You have to juggle studies with raising your brother and nursing your mother?

I wasn’t the only person who ever had to do that, but they were difficult times. My mum was one of a family of 13. And two of her brothers and her two sisters were unmarried and they came over and helped a lot. They’d let me study for my Leaving Cert – and then in my first year in college. My mother was really determined that if that opportunity came our way, through scholarships and grants and so on, that Paul and I should be educated. So, I simply carried on in trying to ensure Paul got his education as well, as she had for me.

It sounds like a tough upbringing.

I had a very lucky upbringing. Sometimes I feel – Jobstown aside (laughs) – that I’ve been born under a lucky star. I’ve experienced difficult times, but who hasn’t? If you’re saying, were my family materially well off? No. But very few families were in those days. There was a lot of love and also a lot of fun.
My mother and father were very outgoing, friendly people, great musicians, singers. I think that’s why I turned to public speaking – because I can’t sing a note! My mum would’ve been a great singer of all the songs from the shows, like Oklahoma. So, I can lip-sync to all of those songs – but you don’t want to hear me singing (laughs).