It's not easy being green

Even John Gormley admits he sometimes still has to pinch himself when he thinks about how he is now sitting at the cabinet table, in charge of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government portfolio.

“If you told me six weeks ago that I was going to be Minister for the Environment, I wouldn’t have believed you,” admitted the affable Gormley, as we strolled through the congested Dublin city centre to our destination of Buswell Hotel for this interview.
During our 10-minute walk to the hotel, which is situated opposite the Dail, well-wishers constantly approached Gormley to congratulate him. When we finally got to the hotel, the interview had to be stopped once or twice because of interruptions from members of the well-meaning public, who appeared genuinely delighted to see a Green holding the environmental mantle. Fearful of constant interruptions spoiling the tempo of the interview, we moved around a few times until we came across a dark corner of the hotel’s bar, the better to obscure Gormley’s identity for the duration of this in-depth and revealing interview.
Even after the interview, Gormley decided against walking through Grafton Street with me on a busy Saturday afternoon, because he might bump into some acquaintances and was fearful of not making his next appointment. Instead, he went back to his bike and cycled off.
The former Lord Mayor is well used to the limelight, but I get the impression that even he is pleasantly surprised and perhaps even overwhelmed by the high level of positive encouragement from the public.
The thrice elected TD, who was the third ever member of the Greens to be elected to the Dail, has played an influential role in the shaping of his party’s identity – including suggesting the name change (from Green Alliance to Green Party) and also pointing out the need to have a party leader.
Born in 1959, Gormley is seen by many as the most influential figure within the Green Party, and is favourite to become the next party leader. In fact, during the course of this interview Gormley confirms that he will contest the Green Party’s leadership. It will be a major political shock if he fails to secure the position.

Jason O’Toole: You must relish the opportunity of being the Minister for the Environment?
John Gormley: Absolutely. The reason I got into Green politics – with emphasis on the word ‘politics’ – by default was because I always saw myself as a campaigner. I was always passionate about the environment and once I got into politics I obviously started speaking about issues – especially in the last Dail, I had portfolios which I wasn’t so enthusiastic about. I just didn’t have the same passion – but now I’m the Minister for the Environment. A huge portfolio, a fantastic opportunity and it is obviously a huge challenge as well. If you look at the state of the Irish environment, there are huge difficulties to be surmounted, but I think there is a tremendous amount of goodwill out there among party members and party supporters, and the general public. I just know from meeting people on the street that they would like the Greens to be in government and do something positive. That’s one of the main reasons why we made the decision to go in.
For most the Health portfolio would be a poisoned chalice, but for the Greens it might be the Environment because if it doesn’t go smoothly for you it could reflect badly on the party.
It is a double-edged sword, obviously. But having said that, I think you can make a success of it if you are not defensive about it and if you are up front with people. In other words, I hope over the summer to be in a position to publish a number of reports about the state of the environment. These will be warts-and-all reports. We can show people that things are not great, and that we can make a difference over the next five years. Then, that will be the benchmark. People will have to say at the end of five years, “Well, have they done the work? Have they made a difference?” And they can make their own judgement at that stage. I think that we can make a difference, undoubtedly. It won’t be a big bang – it will be a series of small but significant steps, and it will also be a change of culture.
Unfortunately, it is a testing time to be handed over the reins of the environment, particularly with the contentious issue of Tara on the agenda. How do you see that situation panning out?
Everything that I can do to protect our archaeological heritage will be done – make no mistake about it. But to say that I can just snap my fingers and make this road go away is unrealistic. In relation to Tara, I have seen a lot of nonsense put out by opposition parties saying I can do this or I can do that. Let me tell you, I have looked at all the legal avenues. I have not only approached the Attorney General, but I have got independent legal advise. I am going to do a number of things – I am going to get the best independent archaeological advice. I have appointed Connor Newman, who is probably the foremost expert on Tara, to advise a committee on Lismullen. I will be publishing a full file on Lismullen soon. And these are just two of the steps I will be taking, and it will go on from there.
What is your assessment of Dick Roche’s duration as Minister for the Environment?
We said everything we had to say while we were in opposition. I think it would be unnecessarily divisive of me to make an assessment at this stage, in the same way as if you were to go back to Fianna Fail and rake over some of the things they said about the Green Party, it wouldn’t help relations. On a personal level, I don’t have a problem with Dick Roche. In fact, we were at a gathering last night and we have a good personal relationship. This is a changed government – the agenda will be changed, and it will be seen in a whole range of areas. The very fact that we are setting up a cabinet committee on climate change signals a new beginning.
Michael McDowell seemed to be fixated with the Green Party – and you in particular.
Oh, I don’t know about that! It’s a strange thing. Michael and I go back a fairly long time. I notice that people outside of politics have a bigger thing about Michael McDowell than I would have. Obviously if Michael had got elected, I wouldn’t have been elected, right? But at the same time, as someone who has been in there and lost, I had – just on a human level – sympathy. But we did have our spats. We had different political outlooks and that’s clear, but as I said at the time, I wish him well because I know that politics is a tough business. I don’t think people realise how tough a business it is.
But McDowell said a lot of silly things about the Greens.
Ah, yeah. But the thing that we took exception to really – and it wasn’t just me, it was all of us – was the leaflets that went out about the Green Party, which were just untrue. That really irked us. It really, really annoyed so many of us. It probably wasn’t such a good idea either, if the PDs had thought about it, it may not have been such a great political strategy. It was based too much on negativity, and they should have just concentrated on their own policies. It is all in the past, it is over with – you just move on.
Can you talk me through that infamous televised clash with McDowell, during the campaign election, when he went up a lamppost?
That was one of those strange moments that are completely unplanned and spontaneous. What happened was: I was at the Dail in the canteen and someone said to me, “Michael McDowell is going up the pole in 20 minutes.” And then he hinted that it was about this leaflet and there was going to be something about the Green Party. So I said, “Right, after this leaflet, I’ve had enough.” So I got on my bike and went out to Ranelagh with a colleague and, as it happened, there was a huge media posse out there. The poster was unveiled and was a bit of a damp squib, actually. I was walking away from the scene when I heard him making the press announcement which was focused again on the Green Party. So at that stage I went back – that was it, I’d had enough.
What was running through your mind?
I just saw red for a few moments, really. I was just angry at the time. It probably got worse – and slightly farcical – because there was a whole pile of guys around him who were taunting and heckling as well. Some people found it funny at that stage because there was this banter going back and forward. I will tell you what was going through my head afterwards. I was just thinking, “Oh my God! That’s it now. We (the Greens) have probably just lost the election,” because it could’ve been interpreted as unseemly. I thought it had to be said, because we had complained so many times about the misinformation, and no one had bothered to correct it. I thought that maybe it was an opportunity to go and correct it – and maybe that’s what happened.
You are saying you thought this would have cost the Greens the election?
Yeah. I wasn’t too sure afterwards: “Mmmm… how is this actually going to go down now?” Because, as I said, it was completely unplanned etc. Honestly, if we had thought about it, it would never have happened. No one in the press office would have said, “That’s a great idea.” They would have said, “No! That’s absolutely mad. You couldn’t possibly do anything like that.” As it happened, it gave us a bit of profile – and I think it did actually help us.
During your altercation with McDowell, you said: “You know the Greens are going to be part of the next government.”
I probably thought we were going to be part of the next government. Although at that stage, the combination I had in mind was not necessarily us with Fianna Fail. I was quite convinced that the government we would be part of would be with Labour and Fine Gael at that stage. It seemed to me that there was a great anti-government feeling out there. Now, how wrong was I? I just didn’t detect it. In my own constituency particularly, one in three people voted for Fianna Fail. My political antenna may not be as good as I thought, but I certainly wasn’t picking that up at the time. So what I said at that time was what I genuinely felt.
Afterwards, did you have to go home and have a stiff drink?
No, no. What happens in election campaigns – and it’s a bit like when you are a Minister as well – you are onto the next thing. You don’t have time to reflect on those “events”, as they are called sometimes in politics. It happens, and in an hour’s time something else could happen. You go from one thing to the next. You don’t have a huge amount of time to reflect on big cock ups or what are perceived as cock ups. It was strange because people afterwards were saying, “fair play,” and that renews your confidence a little bit and you think, “Well, maybe it wasn’t a mistake. Maybe it was the right thing to do”.
The negotiations for collation with FF appeared to be a very intense period.
Yeah, they were. It followed a very intense election. For a while we thought, “What’s going on here?” When the call came from Fianna Fail, we had a number of days where we thought, “Is this for real?” Once we found out it was for real, we then had to ask ourselves, “Will we go for this?” Because once we started negotiation - obviously it has its own dynamic, and we knew we might then be faced with the choice of going in with Fianna Fail. That in itself was a very tense time for all of us.
Initially it looked like a deal wouldn’t be reached amongst the two parties.
It was a case of very little given away (by Fianna Fail). Every single thing we got was tough to get. Everything was haggled over. What we were getting in terms of ministries, and the Seanad, and all those things, wasn’t good enough – on top of a programme that obviously didn’t go as far as we wanted – so at that stage we said, “Right, we’re out of here.” I remember the Thursday before the negotiations collapsed on a Friday, and I didn’t sleep a wink because I said to myself, “There is no way we can go through with this. Absolutely, no way. We are just not getting enough at all.” That was the first time I ever had a sleepless night. It was all very friendly, but I kind of got the impression that they (Fianna Fail) thought we were playing hardball because on the Thursday I had said, “It is not going very well. We don’t know if we can get an agreement.” At that stage, the media actually interpreted that as us as playing hardball. They didn’t believe what we were saying. We were actually genuinely saying, “Look, it’s not looking too good.”
So what was the turning point in the negotiations?
When I went back to them and said, “Look, it’s over. No hard feelings, but we are out of here.” Seamus Brennan said, “What the fuck is going on here?” He was saying, “Do you not realise the way negotiations go? This is only the first bit of it.” I said to him that we do things literally – when we say things aren't good enough, we actually mean it. That was all very intense. Then we got a number of texts, saying, “Look, let’s try and work this out.” On the Sunday, we sent them a paper full of stuff we really wanted, and that got it back on track again. But even then it was painful stuff.
Apparently the negotiations almost came to blows at one stage. Is that an exaggeration?
There were heated exchanges – very heated exchanges – right up until the very end. At one stage, I was at exhaustion point and I said, “I have to get out of here,” and was just going to go down to the Green Party office, and I got a call from some of our background people saying, “You better get back up here. There is a bit of a row going on here. A major row.” It was a row all right - shouting, and then a walk out. People don’t realise it, but that was just a few hours before the agreement was concluded.
Do you believe the Greens negotiated a good deal?
Fianna Fail would argue – I suppose with a certain amount of justification – that they have 78 seats. We have six, and yet we are getting two people – one third of our elected TDs – at the Cabinet table. We would argue that we didn’t clearly get as much as we wanted, but with six TD’s, can you dictate? Can you get 100%? No, you can’t. So, looking back at it, we may have seen them as tough negotiators, but they would feel, “Why should we give everything away?” You have to look at it from their perspective.
Why did the Greens not manage to get a deal on Shannon?
We argued on Shannon - I am talking about the troops – but let’s look at it again, because people need to know this. If we were to be in government, we had a limited number of choices. In basic terms, it was either Fianna Fail or Fine Gael. In either case, they were not going to give on Shannon – Fine Gael probably even more so. They are even more into NATO, and more into all of these things. Fianna Fail were never going to give on Shannon. We were offered this deal on Shannon and our lawyers said, “Don’t agree to that. You are better off having nothing in than to have that in.” Then Fianna Fail was insisting that the deal had to go in and we were saying no, we don’t want it to go in. We rejected the wording. We said we’d be upfront with people – we’d prefer to have nothing at all than to have something that would actually make the situation worse, if it was in the programme for government. The wording spoke about “without UN authorisation”, which is different from a UN mandate. It would have meant that the policy for Ireland would have been UN authorisation and we didn’t want to set that out in writing.
So you admit that you failed on Shannon - having made it a large part of the Greens’ election campaign, while knowing full well there was no hope of either Fianna Fail or Fine Gael giving way on the issue?
Look, we didn’t get Shannon – we just didn’t get it, end of story. There were certain things we won, and there were certain things we didn’t win. We are not going to come out with any bullshit – we just have to tell you, “This is it. We didn’t win.” I remain opposed to the war in Iraq, and I understand there are ministers in Fianna Fail who were opposed to the war in Iraq. That’s the situation. We take it on the chin and move on, and we just say to ourselves, “Lost that one. Lost there. But here’s the compensation – we won here.”
Patricia McKenna told me that she feels like she has “blood on her hands” because her party is in government and Shannon still has US troops passing through it.
No, no. Look, let’s get one thing clear: we’re in an unusual government, in that we are not propping up this government. The idea of a prop is that when you remove the prop, the whole thing falls. We could all resign in the morning and this government would still go on – do you understand? Our support is not necessary for this government to continue. I don’t feel the way Patricia does – I feel that we are in a situation where we had to make choices. Hard choices. There is a moral choice in relation to Shannon, but there’s also a moral choice in relation to the biggest issue facing humanity – and it’s called climate change. That’s a moral issue, and you have to balance out the moral issue here and the moral issue here and say, “Right, am I going to sit in the opposition for five years and do nothing, or do I take the difficult decision and say, ‘I’m going to go in and I’m going to try and change things’?” And God, it is hard… If we had gone into opposition, the troops would still be in Shannon. Every single thing you do, the troops are in Shannon. That’s the reality. Nothing that we could have done would have made a blind bit of difference to how many men, women and children are killed in Iraq.
But unlike the PDs, you didn’t get the Tanaiste position.
That didn’t bother us. I mean, what’s the big deal in terms of policy? It’s status. But we’re not interested in status. Genuinely, we are not interested in status, we are not interested in Mercs, we are not interested in any of that. I mean, on the first night – and this shows you where there is a change in government – in the Chamber, Seamus Brennan said, “We are all going to go up now to the Aras and everyone will be getting into the Mercs and we’ll all go up.” And I said to Seamus, “We are not going up in the Mercs. Eamon and I will be cycling up.” He just said – with a certain despair, I suppose – “You can’t do that, lads!” The Taoiseach said, “OK, we’ll get a bus and everyone will go up in the bus.” It is a small thing, yet it is a symbolic thing. It is a signal for us that there will be a change.
So are you not going to use your ministerial car?
I do use it occasionally. Again, at my request, they went and got a much smaller car – Toyota Prius for me, which has very, very low emissions. I have my bike and I like to cycle because it gets me around quick, and I like the exercise. I cycle all the time, so if I don’t get the exercise I don’t feel right.
You are going to run for party leader?
I have spoken to a number of people and I am putting my name forward. I do want to introduce a number of measures that will ensure that the party membership is very much linked in with the party ministers etc. I think I can build on our success as party leader. I don’t see myself as the sort of party leader who everyone has to be centred around – I am not going to insist that everything is channelled through me. I am more than happy for my fellow TDs – and Senators – to go forward and articulate the party point of view. I think that is the best formula for the party.
I’m sure you would relish being party leader?
Look, in many ways I’ve been in a leadership position along with Trevor for a long, long time. It is ironic, I suppose (pauses)…when Trevor became leader, he asked me before that if I wanted to be leader, but I said no because I genuinely thought that he was the best person at that time. I do have a good political nose, and I do think that in building the party politically – and selling the party – I would have some good ideas around that. I think it is an exciting time for the party – it is obviously a huge change, but I think I can manage that transition.
I must ask you about your infamous “Planet Bertie” speech. You said a lot of negative things about the Taoiseach. Do you regret this now that you’re sitting opposite him at the Cabinet table?
Not at all. A lot of Fianna Fail people saw that speech and said they’d never laughed as much. I did have a funny incident though, where I was slagging him off for wearing the make-up and – on the first day I was up here in Dublin Buildings – I walked into the room and his make-up lady was there. I don’t think she was best pleased to see me. I don’t regret it – that was a speech I gave at our party conference, and it was very critical. It was a funny speech given in a certain context. The opposition now are knocking lumps out of me – and I can take it.
What about the controversies surrounding Bertie’s finances?
The only thing I would say in relation to Bertie’s finances is, let the tribunal come to a conclusion – see what emerges out of that. Everyone is entitled to due process. Do you know what the interesting thing about this is? During the election, the people who didn’t want to discuss this at all – who really wanted to remain silent on it – were Fine Gael and the Labour party. They said, “Oh, no. We don’t want to talk about the man’s personal finances at all.” I was there – I saw it.
I suppose it would be difficult for you now to criticise Bertie.
Of course. I am at the Cabinet Table and it wouldn’t be helpful for relations if I launched into an attack on the Taoiseach or indeed on any other minister – and I won’t be doing that. I realise that I am part of the government, and that we have a programme which we want to implement. If I want to implement my sections – the things that I am interested in – then I have to play ball. But similarly, that applies to everyone in the Cabinet. Everyone has to play ball.
Should this government look at equality rights for same sex couples?
Absolutely. It is in the programme. For the Green Party, it has to be a priority – the end of discrimination against gays and lesbians in Irish society. We have come a long way, but we must get over that hurdle. It is in the programme, and we will be insisting that it is implemented. It’s pending a Supreme Court decision. We said it had to be part of the programme, and that was something that we negotiated. I am proud of the fact that we negotiated that. I am proud of the fact that we negotiated things in relation to autism – those 12 pilot schools are finally going to get funding from the government, and that is progress. People may say that these are small things, but in fact there’s nothing small about them – they are massively important for many people in Irish society.
Should the government look at legalising abortion?
I’ll be honest with you, I wouldn’t put myself – if you want to categorise people – in what’s called the ‘pro-choice’ camp. I think there are certain circumstances in the case of rape or incest where a case can be made. I feel that it’s an area that is complex and fraught with difficulties in moral and ethical ways. In terms of legislation, we did try to make an attempt before which reflected the complexity of Irish thinking on abortion, and that failed. I think we have to revisit the formula that lost the 1992 referendum – believe it or not – because that was a mistake. It could have made some impact – but the problem was that there was a strange alliance of people, who were staunchly ‘pro-life’ and staunchly ‘pro-choice’, that came together. That was a strange thing.
What type of music do you like?
I was listening to Damien Dempsey this morning – To Hell Or Barbados. There was a drugs centre being opened in Ringsend, and he came down to play some music. It was amazing because all the dignitaries, if you like, went inside and Damien was playing outside, and he had his eyes shut and he was playing – and continued to play, outside on his own, as if he was busking. And I stayed outside – because I had never really come across the guy at all – and listened to his music. I think he is brilliant. REM were members of the Irish Green Party. I haven’t seen them for years now, but I might just catch up with them again seeing that they are playing in the Olympia. Just off the top of my head, they are some of the bands and people I like.
Did you ever try marijuana in college?
It is a strange thing – I have never actually smoked, but I did attend parties alright where there were hash cookies and things like that. Yes, when I was in college I did indulge in that alright. It is not a big deal.
Did you get a pleasurable experience from it?
Ah, yeah. It is not something I would really say to people, “Oh, yeah – that is great!” I got, if you like, the giggles and things like that. Yeah, fine. Fine. I wouldn’t go back and say to everyone, “You should do that.” In fact, what I would say to people is, “Any of these things are experiences, that you can actually live a happy life and do without them. You can go through life and not drink alcohol and without indulging in drugs and probably have a much better life – a far better life.” Generally speaking, the smart thing to do is stay away from any of the substances. You are better off actually. I have looked at it in quite a bit of detail. I have looked at the figures in relation to alcohol – that’s the drug. Concentrate on that. It is a major drug – albeit a legal one – and we are promoting it, glorifying it, seeing it as part of our culture and not addressing it. It is involved in a whole range of issues – marriage breakdown, anti-social behaviour – and it is just ignored. It is something that we have to really address at some stage. Our alcohol consumption has increased by about 40%. Suicides have increased by the same percentage. I am not saying that there is a direct correlation, but we do know that it is a depressant – and again, it is just completely ignored.
Experimenting in college is no big deal, right?
What I would say is – and this is important – I am anti-smoking, I don’t even drink alcohol. I would probably drink at Christmas time, that is about it. I think we need to put the whole drugs question in context. The two biggest drug problems we have in this country are alcohol and tobacco. So let’s get a grip here, you know? This idea that people are scandalised by marijuana – I think they are losing the plot here. Concentrate on the big picture – concentrate on the drugs which are causing a major health problem in Irish society, and deal with them. First and foremost, deal with those ones.
Do you believe in God?
Yes.
Would you describe yourself as a religious person?
I am not someone who attends mass every Sunday or anything like that. In that sense – the conventional religious way – no.