Each man in his time plys many parts

I can vividly recall Paul Gogarty busking outside Grogan’s pub in Dublin’s city centre. Unusually for a future TD, Gogarty could be found every Saturday on his patch, in his trademark New Romantic mascara, strumming melodies that nobody seemed to be familiar with...

As an icebreaker, I mention this to Gogarty. “I used to busk up until the year 2000,” he laughs. “I’ve written 50 or 60 songs myself and – rather than play cover versions – I liked playing my own stuff outside Grogan’s in Castle Market because people sitting down at nearby cafés had time to listen and give their verdict. They were better customers than passers-by.
“When I was in college, I busked three or four times a week to make a few quid. After that, I continued doing it every Saturday – it wasn’t so much to make money, as the fact that I loved singing and it was good practice. I feel I’ve kind of gone downhill in the last four or five years – but I can still definitely sing...”
The interview is taking place at lunchtime in a popular Maynooth pub, but that doesn’t inhibit the colourful TD from demonstrating his flair for singing. The revellers at the bar quickly turn around to hear him singing George Michael’s ‘A Different Corner’ a cappella. He then further demonstrates his musical prowess by singing some opera. “That’s a load of bollix!,” he jokes. “But as I say, I’ve got a reasonable range. I won second prize in a karaoke competition in Athlone – dressed up as Boy George! The only reason I lost is because I was up against a local!
“One time though, I was actually busking on Grafton Street when this guy came up to me and said that he used to manage a couple of bands. He gave me his number. Turned out it was Eoghan Harris, of all people, so maybe I misheard him! I rang him a few months later but he said he was too busy. This was around the time of the infamous Twink sketch at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis. Maybe he should have stuck to management!”
Gogarty, who grew up reading Hot Press, had an ambition to appear in this magazine as a bona fide musician. Sadly, that never happened. Instead, Gogarty has arrived in the political sphere as one of six Green TDs who, as he admits himself in this extraordinary confessional interview, are “propping up” the current Fianna Fail-lead government.

Jason O'Toole: What’s your reaction to the perception out there that the Greens have basically sold out?
Paul Gogarty: The term ‘sell out’ sounds like you’re either too stupid or too much of a cute hoor. I tell you what it is – you trade. We’ve traded some of what we want for something else that we want. That’s the reality.
But the Greens’ went into government reneging on their three major pre-election promises on Tara, Shannon and Rossport. That’s selling out, isn’t it?
These were three issues that six TDs weren’t going to put up to any large party and say, ‘We’re not going to go into government unless you sort these out’. The reality is we wouldn’t be in government. I’d rather be someone getting a kick up the backside for making some wrong decisions and some good ones than to be a Holy Joe shouting from the side of the pitch! There’s always going to be a case of compromise. You’re right to the extent that we haven’t achieved everything we’d like to achieve. But when we go through the five year term, you will hopefully see a strong Green imprint there for future generations.
So, the Greens have effectively got into bed with Fianna Fail.
Put it this way, if you get into bed with anyone you have prostituted yourself! We are lying there bollix naked next to Fianna Fail. We’ve been screwed by them a few times, but we are hoping we can roll them around to get what we want, over the longer term. We have more staying power! The only way you can never be accused of a sell-out is never to go into government. In hindsight, if I had known what was going to arise it would have been a lot easier to criticise from the ditch. But the one caveat about that is we wouldn’t have had a voice in opposition. We would have been six seats and we wouldn’t have had speaking time. In government we do have a voice. You have to remember: The Green Party is a bit like the Human League! You’re talking about a bunch of talented amateurs! We’ve been shoved into the big time and have somehow managed to make something out of it. On balance, we’ve had a credible impact on government – particularly in our ministries over the last two years.
John Gormley said to me last year: “We’re in an unusual government, in that we are not propping up this government. The idea of a prop is that when you remove the prop, the whole thing falls. We could all resign in the morning and this government would still go on.” That’s not accurate now…
Fianna Fail don’t realise yet that one of the legs has been pulled out from under them – and that it is the Greens propping them up. It’s very clear that if the Greens decide to vote against the government the government will fall.
Are you going to flex your political muscles more now?
I don’t think we have tested the waters enough in standing up to Fianna Fail. However, there have been several instances when we have slammed the table hard and put it up to them. You are never going to hear about it. There has been a significant amount of Fianna Fail drawing back on issues where we have – behind the scenes – said, ‘We’re not happy with that’. That’s going to happen more and more. We have to be careful and use that new influence wisely because if you push too strong it’s going to tumble down and if you don’t push strong enough then what’s the point of being in government? It is a balancing act. And I don’t think we’ve got it right just yet.
There’s a theory that the Greens are holding tight for another six months in order to secure those ministerial pensions?
Bullshit! We are not motivated by that.
For the Greens the Environment portfolio might be a poisoned chalice because if it doesn’t go smoothly for you it will reflect badly on the party.
In some ways, I personally would have argued not to take environment because it’s too clichéd. But, given that it’s crucial in setting a Green agenda, we had to take it. I can’t read the Taoiseach’s mind but I assumed the attitude of his predecessor was: ‘Give the Greens whatever they want in their own portfolios and let the real team deal with the rest of it!’ You could argue that we’ve done substantially well in our own ministries, but have had less input into other ministries than we would like or the Programme For Government would indicate. That’s where we have to strike a balance. That’s why we’ll have to make up our mind: ‘Ok, are we getting enough or not?’
Will the Greens last the full term in government?
There’s no point in staying in government if you can’t achieve the policy objectives you set out to achieve. We now have an opportunity – we’re now the leg holding up a Fianna Fail government and we have to assert ourselves. If we are not able to then we should pull out. But we need to give ourselves time. That’s why I’m putting down a motion about this at the upcoming Ard Fheis.
What motion?
I’m drawing a line in the sand. We give ourselves a further year in government – which is a reasonable period of deliberation and reflection – and we ask the members to debate and vote on a motion of withdrawing from government. If we haven’t achieved enough of our goals, the members can vote on pulling out; but if the motion is not passed by the requisite majority, the Green Party should reaffirm its commitment to continuing in Government for the remainder of its term of office. ‘Can Fianna Fail be housetrained?’ is the question (laughs)! I’m messing there! We never said we’re going to be Fianna Fail’s watchdogs, right? While we’re not there to control them, at the same time we have to have some sort of a tangible influence.
If your programme for Government is not going to be implemented in its entirety, why not pull out now?
In the current economic situation where the markets are looking for any sign of political instability pulling out of government right now – even if you wanted to – would be the wrong thing to do. If you had political instability – whereby a government fell in the period between holding an election and the new government being returned – there would be so much instability that it could actually damage the country for years to come.
Are you not just propping the people (ie FF) who are responsible for creating this mess in the first place?
It is tempting to say let’s pull out now and let the opposition parties take over. The reality is that Fine Gael and Labour were engaging in the same practices that encouraged this culture of corporate corruption. They willingly took and still take donations from banks, developers and big business and their re-zoning records on local authorities often reflected this. So they too have no credibility. With this in mind the focus has to be on finding solutions rather than political posturing. The current recession is global but its effects have been made much worse by decisions made by previous administrations. We had no part in the voodoo economic policies that created the property bubble, the over-extensions in lending and borrowing and damaged our competitiveness. But we do believe that Green economic policies are needed as part of the solution, to ensure energy security, sustainable communities and future job opportunities.
Personally, how close have you been to pulling out?
I’ll be quite honest, I’ve come close once or twice, yes. The easy thing would be to say, "Look at me! I’m better than all this shower! I’m resigning because my principles are better than their principles." But the reality is if you go as an independent you have no more influence. I’m frustrated on a daily basis. I have to say one of my personality faults is that I do give a shit. I do care whether other people like me or not, or whether people think I have integrity. And I’ve got enough people saying I haven’t, over different things, for it to actually hurt. It does hurt. I have been a member for 20 years, so I’m not going to leave the Green Party easily, unless the party changes beyond recognition. Of course, I’ll resign eventually – if I can’t live with it. But I think we should all go together, if we go.
What’s your attitude to the idea of public service pay cuts?
There is huge anger over the public service levy. The perception is that the fat cats are getting away scot free while ordinary people are being penalised unfairly. I am hopeful that those responsible for corporate malpractice will eventually get what they deserve under the law, but I do not see any realistic alternative to the levy itself. Public sector workers saw how many in the private sector did tremendously well during the boom and how they did comparatively less well. And now they are being asked to make a further sacrifice. It seems doubly unfair. However, the truth is that even now the value of guaranteed public sector jobs and pensions will significantly exceed anything the private sector can offer. It’s hard to appreciate this when you are about to lose a chunk of your take home pay. But we have no choice, things are that bad. The levy is absolutely 100% necessary.
Patricia McKenna recently told me that she wouldn’t consider running for the Greens because of her strong feelings on issues like Shannon and Lisbon.
She is seen as the anti-government spokesperson for the Green Party, but she can’t really start acting as a spokesperson for us on European issues if she didn’t even have the guts to put her name down to contest the election. She can talk about integrity and principles but – much as I like her – she’s grossly insulting all of her Green Party colleagues because all of them have integrity and principles. It’s just some are more pragmatic than others in terms of what needs to be done within the workings of a coalition. If she can’t square that, that’s her issue.
There’s a theory that Fianna Fail put pressure on the Greens to ensure McKenna didn’t run, since she would have taken anti-government positions.
Any suggestion of Fianna Fail not being happy with Patricia running is bullshit. Patricia didn’t even put her name down to go for it, so she couldn’t be shafted. If she had gone for it she may have beaten Déirdre de Búrca. She’s genuine but she doesn’t understand the way politics operates. She’s never learnt what it’s like to be a team player. I think part of that is because she was isolated out in Europe, not working within a political organisation. It wasn’t a good omen that Patricia couldn’t even get a local election nomination for Cabra/Glasnevin. She doesn’t have a substantial support within the Greens.
Do you think John Gormley has changed since becoming Minister for the Environment?
Yeah. John has gone inward. He has gone a bit within himself because of the ministry. And I think trying to counterbalance that with being party leader is always going to be difficult, unless you’re the Taoiseach. He’s not a cuddly teddy bear! He’s one of the good guys, but he’s like one of these hippos that, if you stand on his tail, he will demolish you! To paraphrase Bertie, he’s certainly the most cunning of them all in our party. John has balls and he’ll fight his corner. He’ll cut your throat if it means doing the right thing. But the question is, have we the balls to put it to Fianna Fail and has he taken his share of responsibility? The jury is still out.
What pisses you off the most about the Greens at the moment?
What pisses me off most about the Greens is our actual strategy. A lot of decisions – in terms of getting our message out there – are being left to others in the party rather than John. He’s so busy doing his ministry that he’s not necessarily as engaged as he could be. If John had a direct input our message would be slightly different. He’s lost touch with the communications point of view, in terms of getting the party message across to the electorate. He’s not focused on electoral strategy. He’s very good at going around the country dealing with local groups, but we’re not getting the bread and butter message out there – that voting Green is going to help sustain our long term future and is good for jobs and low energy prices.
Is there anything else that annoys you?
You are always going to get stupid things. I say stupid in that, as a party, we pushed them beyond their importance – bikes and bulbs. There’s a lot more going on in helping the environment than bikes and bulbs. But this was somehow seen as the unique selling point! There’s some things we are wasting our time putting out there – like habitats being saved or even the issue of the cars and tax system. Local government reform and trying to clean up politics is a lot more important than that.
Did the Greens have any influence on Bertie Ahern resigning as Taoiseach?
It’s like this: why is Bertie gone? Let’s just say that undoubtedly there must have been a Green influence! Ultimately, it was his decision but – as I mentioned earlier on – there were certain things that we had an influence on but you can’t go public with. I detest everything that cute hoor Fianna Fail stands for. That’s what got me into politics. It was the rezoning of my area that got me into politics. I said, ‘This has to be stopped.’ But when you look at Bertie Ahern what he’s guilty of – so far – as far as I’m concerned is taking money inappropriately, which quite a few politicians were doing at the time. It is wrong. It’s morally wrong. At the time you didn’t have legislation that would make it legally wrong. So, he was doing what everyone else was doing. He was wrong to do so! The Taoiseach’s credibility was coming into question. What I am sure of – you have to be very diplomatic – is that the highest levels of Fianna Fail were aware of our concerns about the damage to the government’s credibility.
What do you make of Trevor Sargent stepping down because of his pre-election commitment not to lead the party into a government with Fianna Fáil, with Bertie Ahern at the helm? He still lead the party into government. A lot of people thought that was a joke.
Trevor made a huge personal sacrifice. Trevor would have had a senior ministry. Trevor could have been Tanaiste, if we had pushed for that. Trevor – and it’s one of his worst faults – is too damned principled. Trevor mixed up his own personal moral values with the cut and thrust of politics. Sometimes in politics you have to sit down with people who are diametrically opposed to what you stand for. He tied himself up in knots about going in with Fianna Fail. Trevor stepping down was the wrong thing. I actually advised him against it. I said, ‘All you have to say to people is, “I’m entitled to do a Roy Keane!”’ Trevor made a mistake.
Why did the opposition parties never sit down and thrash out a deal to form a government?
We had an opportunity to form an alternative – Fine Gael, Labour, the PDs, Sinn Fein, the independents, the Greens. It got to the stage where Enda Kenny rang Trevor and said, ‘Listen, you wouldn’t mind talking to Sinn Fein about forming a government!’ That’s a load of bollix. If Fine Gael were serious about forming an alternative – and they wanted to do it at all costs – then Sinn Fein would have been part of the equation. These guys had a democratic mandate just like Fianna Fail. But Fine Gael weren’t prepared to risk the criticism. We could have had an alternative, without Fianna Fail.
Someone told me that you’ve been known to use a female alias on the politics.ie web forum?
I’ve used several female aliases (laughs) and several male aliases! I suppose the best one was when I created this false Fine Gael poll which ended up in the local papers! I created this poll that had some of my rivals doing better than me! The local paper rang up and I said, ‘You shouldn’t believe everything you read on politics.ie!’ It got a big spread about how Fine Gael were going to do tremendously well. I got a bit of a laugh out of that. Anything on politics.ie is obviously politically motivated. I’ve even insulted myself through politics.ie – I’ve called myself a ‘moron’. I’ve called myself the thinking woman’s crumpet! You name it, I’ve done it on politics.ie – for the craic! I’ve also had to defend against some really bad propaganda.
Like the situation where your mental health was called into question by Fine Gael’s education spokesperson Brian Hayes?
There’s a lot of politically motivated crap. There was a thread on politics.ie asking if I was mentally ill! It went overboard. It’s a serious issue that shouldn’t be made light of. I wasn’t suffering from clinical depression, but it’s been a bad year for me. My dad died of a brain tumour last May. He was sick for the whole year. And before that my very close friend Cllr Fintan McCarthy died (tragically while on holidays in China with his girlfriend in 2006 - JOT). That affects you. It’s tragic. I miss Fintan every day and I miss my dad every day. It’s fair to say I wouldn’t have got elected without Fintans’s help. Let’s just say we complemented each other. We argued consistently – but we both had the same political antennae.
I heard you took Fintan’s death very badly and literally found it difficult to get out of bed?
That’s probably an exaggeration, but I was totally in bits. It was like we were this same-sex couple! We’d be on the phone to each other every day; we’d bounce ideas off each other all the time; or he’d be in my kitchen with my wife discussing things and coming up with great ideas. Fintan was tireless in helping me and he died nine months before a general election. I didn’t feel like it (running) but I said, ‘I’m going to do this for Fintan’. At the count I was told you’re not allowed to bring posters up when you’re giving your speech and I said, ‘Look, this is a poster of Fintan, who died’. So, I lifted the poster aloft and I just said, ‘This is for Fintan’. So, it’s still emotional. I nearly get tearful about it now. Fintan wasn’t God! He was a cranky fucker sometimes! We were friends through the good and the bad. It was a normal relationship, where you happened to be working with one of your closet friends. And that does knock it out of you.
There’s a perception out there of you being a loose cannon?
In the party, there’s a perception amongst some cohorts that I’m a bit of a loose cannon. I’ve lost my rag a few times. I don’t suffer fools gladly. But at the same time, I burst my gut to help people in the party for different things over the years. I curse too much, that’s one of my faults. The loose cannon allegory is correct but, at the same time, I’ve never gone against anything that the members have decided or what the members wish. Yes, I’m an individual. Yes, I care if people like me or think I have integrity. But otherwise I don’t give a shit. Otherwise I wouldn’t have gone around wearing make-up, getting spat at and being called gay. The thing is, I was into New Romantic stuff and I used to wear eye shadow regularly – even during my student days. There’s a perception out there that if you do that, if you wear make-up, you’re automatically gay! I was slagged for many years for being gay! Obviously, I have nothing against people who are gay, but the fact was I wasn’t gay. I did get paranoid about it.
Did you question your own sexuality growing up?
Everyone else was questioning it. I used to joke that I was 25% gay! I was mainly heterosexual, with a twist – not enough to be bi! I remember having a particularly bad month for being called gay, and I bought a Playgirl, looking at naked men to see if it did anything for me, but it didn’t! I wasn’t seriously questioning it, but I said, ‘Right, let’s just see now! If I am, this is going to arouse me!’ But it didn’t! Not in the slightest. Not even one bit. I swear to God! Men always get turned on by the idea of two women together. So, do I! Brokeback Mountain looked kind of natural – that’s because it was a kind of a love story. But, to me, a woman’s body is more beautiful than a man’s body – definitely! I’d have been the first to say, if I was gay I’d be the most extroverted, militant gay you’d meet! I’d reckon I’d make a good career out of gay rights!
Did you get guys coming-on to you much?
I was chatted up once or twice in nightclubs. I just said, ‘I’m really flattered but let’s pick up a few girls then, you and I, and see what we can do!’ But there was also the case that I used it as a chat-up line. People would say, ‘Are you gay?’ And I’d say, ‘No, but I’ve got a feminine side! So, I know just what women want!’ It’s funny, the first single I ever bought was by Gary Glitter. I was big into Gary Glitter when I was a kid – but I haven’t played any of his records since I found out that he would have been big into me as well! Great talent, great charisma – it’s a pity that he’s sick.
Did your New Romantic appearance have the desired effects on the ladies?
Eventually – there was a certain niche of women who actually liked men who were feminine! Here’s the God’s honest truth: I remember one night I pulled with some girl because I had eye shadow on. A total stranger! I wasn’t even trying to, it just happened because she obviously thought it was kind of quirky! One night I snogged someone (while) dressed up as Mary Robinson at a fancy dress (laughs)! And another time I was supposed to be dressed up as Joseph and the Amazing Technicolour Dream Coat, but it was all the mascara and stuff, so it was kind of half-girly and, again, I ended up snogging some girl, so... there was a niche market for it (laughs)!
How old were you when you lost your virginity?
I can’t tell you on the record, as obviously my wife will be reading this! Let’s just say I was just out of my teens! Was it Caesar who said, ‘I came; I saw; I conquered,’ right? Well with my first time, ‘I saw; I conquered; I came!’ I was about as quick as it’s taken me to decide whether we should pull out of government (laughs)!
It sounds like you were a late bloomer, sexually.
I was innocent enough growing up. Probably because a lot of my friends are as well. A lot of them were watching videos and drinking coke rather than going out in the fields and knacker-drinking. It was only when I went to college that you got to have adult relationships. Let’s just say my problem with sex is I was too nice! I can tell you the truth: I’ve been in the sack with people and done nothing about it! I was a slow learner when it came to pulling girls. I wrote a song called ‘Hot and Cold’ about it. Let’s just say, when I could have been a total bastard I turned down opportunity. I even told my friends and I got laughed at! ‘You fucking idiot!’ I was too nice! I’m actually shy in some ways. I could sit and talk to someone for ten hours at a party and my friend would say, ‘Have you not snogged each other yet!’ I’d be too busy chatting. I was never into wearing the face off someone you had picked up off the side of the road! I was into getting to know somebody. The first couple of times when you have an open goal, I didn’t tap the ball in! I thought women might think I was taking advantage of them. It was only after watching American Pie that I realised they actually wanted me to take advantage of them (laughs)!
Are there any good looking female TDs in the Dail?
There’s not much choice in the female department, is there? It would be unfair to say TD ‘X’ is more attractive than ‘Y’! I’ll tell you who’s handsome – pretty – in her own way: Beverly Flynn has a certain nobility about the way she carries herself. And Mary Coughlan now! She has a very flirty way about her. I’d flirt with anyone! Even if I am married I’ll flirt with people! I have to say I actually find Mary O’Rourke to be quite engaging. Your last interview with Mary O’Rourke mentioned orgasms! I think politics is a replacement for orgasms for some people! I don’t mean her now – but some people get off on politics. The hottest thing about the Dail is the hot air that’s generated! It’s not naturally a profession that ‘looks’ benefited!
So, have you ever got hit on in the Dail?
Since I got into government, I’ve had a lot of Fianna Fail people getting a bit close for comfort! Putting their arm around you; patting you on the back. I’m kind of wondering what they’re looking for, but nobody has ever come on to me in the Dail, unfortunately! I’m still waiting (laughs)!
On a more serious note, I understand you were adopted. How old were you when you found out?
I always knew I was adopted. From the very start. I used to boast about being adopted. But then I had this teacher in fifth class and he said, ‘Is there anybody adopted in this class? I pity anybody who’s adopted!’ And I didn’t say anything. That was kind of hugely embarrassing. I was a bit mortified for a couple of years then. It was horrible. It wasn’t until I was in my late teens that I was saying it openly again. It’s not widely known; I don’t hide it, but at the same time I don’t want to make a song and dance about it. I don’t want to downplay the importance of my adopted parents and my adopted family.
How old were you before finally meeting your birth-mother?
When I was just turning 30, my mother Mary said, ‘Maybe you should meet your birth-mother because you might regret it if you don’t!’ I kind of felt I’d be betraying my parents if I did it. But I just kind of decided, ‘Well, fuck it – I’ll do that’. And it turns out that they were looking for me since I was 21. So, I found my birth-mother happened to be living only down the road, in Palmerstown. It was kind of funny because I met my birth-mother just before the local elections. My three younger sisters were living at home at the time and my birth-mother told them she had something to tell them. One of them twigged it and said: ‘Do we have a brother we don’t know about?’ They must have seen a photograph of me in the house, or something like that. And she said, ‘Yeah!’ – and she pointed to the election poster and said, ‘That’s him up there (laughs)!’ So, just before I got elected to the Council I met my birth family.
Do you get on well with them?
It’s been a blessing in general. From the meeting until now, the whole relationship has been 99% positive. Now it’s like I also consider my adopted family my family – it’s not a case of either or; it’s just one extended family now. I don’t draw a line, family is family no matter what it comes from. Put it this way, I’ve been on holidays with my mother and my birth-mother. There’s no distinction. I’m one of the lucky ones – I get on with my entire birth family. My older (birth) sister lives locally; in fact, she would have gone to school with a girl I went out with. She would have been in the same class as her. Jesus! I could have ended up snogging my sister! But as my sister always tells me, I’m not her type (laughs)!