Ciaran Cuffe

“Hi there!” beams the short, grey and handsome fellow, casually but expensively attired in a white roundneck t-shirt, fashionable trousers and black jacket. Quinn and I glance quickly at each other and simultaneously shrug. Who the hell’s this? An assistant, maybe?
“Oh, hello there,” I reply, somewhat nonplussed. “And you’re…?”
“I’m… Ciaran,” he replies, extending a hand. Quinn and I look doubtfully at each other again and, for a moment, it’s almost like that scene with the female barrister in Fr. Ted (“Yeah, yeah! Of course you are! Ha! You must think we’re the big thickos from hotpress! Eh? Come on – where’s your boss?”). “Ciaran… Cuffe,” he clarifies, humorously raising an eyebrow.
Shite! It’s never an auspicious start when interviewer doesn’t recognise interviewee, but I guess we could be forgiven.
Although Ciaran Cuffe turned 40 earlier this year, the former architect, town planner and lecturer is still a fairly fresh face on the Irish political landscape – a Green greenhorn. Having lost his deposit in Dublin Central in the general election of 1997, he won a Dublin City Council seat in the South East Inner City in 1999 (he had been a city councillor since 1991). He resigned that position a few months ago, having finally become a TD, taking the fifth seat in Dun Laoghaire, in 2002.
Just how effective a political force he’ll be remains to be seen, but he’s certainly had a shaky start. He’s really only come to national prominence in recent months, when it was discovered that he held over a million euros’ worth of shares in some decidedly non-Green corporations. Dubbed ‘Chemical Cuffe’ by the media, he was swiftly renamed ‘Condom Cuffe’ when he reinvested some of his money in a condom company.
A millionaire Green with suspect investments? I’d expected a sleazier, shiftier, more clever-pants type, but instead he’s earnest, engaging and funny (when I tell him he doesn’t look like a TD, he grins and says, “Thanks!). He suggests that we leave Leinster House and go around the corner to the new entrance to the National Gallery, explaining that he’d like the pictures to be taken somewhere “more modern.”
As we walk, he chats away happily about everything from Hunter S. Thompson’s latest tome Kingdom Of Fear to the difficulties of combining career and child care. He’s not married but is in a longterm relationship with his journalist girlfriend Jackie. They have two young children together, and she has two older children (aged 12 and 15) from a previous relationship. “It’s a lot of people living under one roof so it’s always a busy house,” he laughs.
Pictures done, we adjourn to the bar of the nearby Mont Clare Hotel (his is a sparkling Ballygowan), and get started. Having been so badly singed by the media in recent months, he’s understandably quite careful on certain issues but, all in all, he seems an open, honest and likeable type. Like I said, not your typical Teachta Dala.

OT: I know that you grew up in Shankill, but aren’t you also an American citizen?
CC: My late mother was American. And I have both American and Irish citizenship.

OT: And you’re related to the Kennedy’s?
CC: There’s a distant connection there on my mother’s side. My mum met a charming Irishman who had come over to study architecture at Harvard, and she fell for him. They got married over there and came back to Ireland.

OT: Is your father still alive?
CC: No. My father’s dead for 20 years and my mum died three years ago.

OT: The media’s discovery that the share portfolio she’d left you included some oil companies must have been highly embarrassing for you, as a Green TD…
CC: It was [pulls face, shrugs shoulders]. It’s been a very tumultuous three years – a busy time. These things take time, with wills and all of that. And in very rapid succession my mother passed away, and I became a father – not once, but twice. And then the year I was elected – last year – was quite a crazy year. Our house was flooded and we literally had to escape over the back wall, with the aid of the guards. We had to move house then subsequently, so it really was quite a difficult year. When I said that I had been busy, I meant it. Our youngest had been quite ill as well – in hospital. So there were things I wanted to do, but hadn’t got around to doing.

OT: It was a bit of a trial by fire for you, wasn’t it?
CC: Well, you certainly get thrown in at the deep end when you get involved in national politics. You kind of have to eat and breathe it.

OT: Do you have brothers and sisters, by the way?
CC: I do. I have seven brothers and sisters. It’s a big family.

OT: Did they all receive the same amount as you in your mother’s will?
CC: Em, without going into details, we all obviously received something from my late mother.

OT: Were you immediately aware of what the investments were?
CC: Yeah. It was something that did concern me. I did intend to do something about it, but many other things were happening at the same time – kids and floods, etc. etc.

OT: Wasn’t there another embarrassing incident a few years back, when you went onboard the US aircraft carrier the JFK when it visited Dun Laoghaire?
CC: That’s right. I guess I was there in a personal capacity, courtesy of the former American ambassador Jean Kennedy Smith. And it was in that capacity that I was there. But I should’ve been more careful, I think, in retrospect. That did cause some upset within the Green Party at the time.

OT: When did you first become involved with the Greens?
CC: It was around 1982, I think. I’d just started college or just finished school. Round about the time of the Wood Quay protests – people annoyed or upset about the civic offices being built on Wood Quay. And I remember taking the bus into town with my placard that read ‘SAVE WOOD QUAY!’ I guess that was the start of my politicisation. But when I was in college I was involved with a group called Students Against the Destruction of Dublin and we were upset about motorway plans for…

OT: Were you called SAD?
CC: Well, S-A-D-D we tended to call it (laughs). I think we were more mad than sad! We were upset about the motorway plans and all of the buildings being demolished in the middle of town – Eccles Street, Essex Quay in Temple Bar and so on. And there was a great bunch of people, very politicised, very concerned, and we had marches and screamed through our megaphones at the city fathers and mothers of City Hall. And, I think, effected some change. I haven’t seen protests outside City hall with those kinds of numbers since then. And that was ten or fifteen years ago.

OT: Do you think that students today are less politicised than your generation?
CC: No, I don’t. I think there’s a different form of politicisation. I think students these days get involved in particular campaigns, and I think there’s a lot more campaigning these days – concerns about globalisation, concerns about migration – but the manifestation would appear to me to be more in terms of separate campaigns for specific issues. And I think students are as concerned today as they were when I was in college.

OT: Come on! You don’t really see them reacting en masse to anything…
CC: But I think there’s a lot more pressure on kids today. It’s parallel to the view that one takes of Irish society today. People say, ‘Oh, people have no time for each other these days’. But, in fact, people are very busy trying to get the money together to pay the mortgage. And in the same way in college, students are often very busy getting through the exams in order to hopefully get a job at the end of it that’ll pay the mortgage. So I don’t think that there’s been a particular change in the social concerns of people in Irish society or amongst students today. I just think there are other pressures there – fiscal pressures, in particular.

OT: You recently reinvested some of your inherited shares in Condomi – a condom company. Was that a deliberate move to piss off your detractors?
CC: Well, I am delighted to have invested in a fund that has shares in a condom company. I think any company that is trying to address the catastrophe of HIV and AIDS is worth investing in, and I certainly am very proud of my decision to invest in a fund that has invested in Condomi. And I have no difficulty with that.

OT: Though certain sections of the media did…
CC: As regards the views of Independent Newspapers, I would leave that to my lawyers to deal with at the appropriate time.

OT: Is there a legal thing happening there?
CC: I’m certainly looking at my options. I’ve spent quite a bit of time over the last few days looking at those options, so ‘watch this space’ would be my view there. But not only do Condomi address the issue of HIV and AIDS, they’re also an important company in the fight against sexually transmitted diseases here in Ireland. There’s been an enormous rise in STD’s here in Ireland and I think it makes sense to support a condom company. The motto of that company is ‘Play Safe & Have Fun’ and I would certainly stand by that.

OT: What do you think of the current government?
CC: I think some commentator recently dismissed it as ‘the most boring government in years’, and I would tend to agree there. There’s an enormous absence of vision. When you look at the current taoiseach and try to look for any particularly visionary project that he has committed himself to, it’s this preposterous idea of a national stadium on the edge of Dublin’s ring-road. And whether you’re speaking as your ordinary punter or speaking as a town planner, that is a recipe for disaster. It will simply create or contribute to Ireland’s greatest traffic jam and will leave an awful lot of people as far removed from access to sports as they were before.

OT: Where do you think they should build it?
CC: If we’re building a new national stadium I’d love to see it in town – in the Docklands. Close to where people are. People love to go to a match and hang out in the neighbourhood afterwards, go to the local pub, and that’s the atmosphere, to me, of what a national stadium should be. But going back to the government, I think there are concerns about its approach to the environment, to wage management, to health, to education. And I think the Green Party and many of the opposition parties are putting forward a healthy alternative to what the current government is doing.

OT: Surely it’s undeniable that the current opposition is about as weak as it’s ever been?
CC: I think it is. But I’ve a lot of time for Labour in opposition – I certainly have a lot of admiration for what they’re doing. I have a lot of respect for Eamon Gilmore, who’s a constituency colleague of mine, and for Liz McManus and for others within the Labour Party. I’ve yet to see signs of life in Fine Gael. No doubt they are claiming that they’ll rise phoenix-like from the ashes, but I’m not holding my breath.

OT: They’re probably more likely to rise ashen-faced from The Phoenix!
CC: Ha – excellent one! (laughs) There’s a funny sea change going on in Irish politics. I think the Labour Party are moving into the space that Fine Gael used to operate in. I think Sinn Fein are claiming the space that Labour traditionally were in. And I think there’s a lot of room left over for the Green Party. I think we’re both attracting a middle class vote and a working class vote from people who are disenchanted with the other parties that are there.

OT: Were you invited to the Ahern-Westlife wedding?
CC: Sadly I’m still waiting for my invitation to the, em, society wedding of the year. I’m not too upset about it (laughs). Ah, I think they could have approached the whole thing in a manner that was more favourable – particularly towards the people who live in the village that they got married in. But I think if you want to be out of the glare of publicity there’s better ways of doing it than selling the photo-rights for a million euro or whatever it was.

OT: Though, in fairness to Bertie, it was his daughter’s wedding, not his.
CC: Well, I think the father of the bride does have some involvement in the wedding. But I do take your point that many of the decisions were not his to make. It wouldn’t be the seminal issue I would try and hang the current taoiseach on. I think there are many other examples of his lack of leadership and failure in government that I’d be much more upset about.

OT: You’ve got a 15-year-old in the house. Do you feel there’s enough being done to tackle the issue of teenage drinking?
CC: I think we’re approaching it from the wrong angle. To me, the greatest contribution to over-drinking in the last few years has been the rise of the super-pub – huge anonymous drinking barns with all the atmosphere of an airport departure lounge. And with very little control from the publican over the people within the premises.

OT: What do the Greens think should be done?
CC: We would completely liberalise the licensing laws in this country. We certainly think that there’s a cartel at work there, and we feel it should be broken-up. And, ironically, the cartel is leading to the owners of very nice old pubs having to expand to double or treble their size in order to fund the amount of the bank loan that they need to keep the place going. So the beautiful old pubs are being demolished, because there’s only a small amount of licenses going around, and then in their wake we’re seeing big huge super-pubs, which is taking us the completely wrong direction.
I mean, I watched what happened when I saw almost every great pub in Temple Bar being expanded dramatically – the Foggy Dew, the Norseman, the Temple Bar. These were small intimate pubs and their small scale character epitomised what Temple Bar should’ve been. And instead they were ripped apart.

OT: Do you drink yourself?
CC: I do. I’m fond of a pint.

OT: When was the last time you were drunk?
CC: Em… I’ll have to think about that (laughs). Probably when I was down on holidays in Clare for a week, about a month ago. I certainly took pleasure in having several pints in some of the lovely pubs down there. But really what we should be encouraging is responsibility. And, in a sense, the new very draconian legislation is missing the point. It’s talking about reducing opening hours, rather than looking for more responsibility from those who drink. It’s stopping music from being played during drinking-up time. To my mind, it seems almost to seek to make drinking into a solitary pastime as opposed to a natural part of our daily lives. I’d love to see much more association between drinking and eating. And in fact, the last time I was drunk, my memory is that I had a lovely meal with it as well.

OT: Your ‘memory’ is?
CC: No, no – I have quite a clear memory of the occasion! (laughs) I lived in Italy for a year after I finished college – in Venice. And nothing gave me greater pleasure than to go out with friends and have a couple of beers and a pizza. And up until very recently in Ireland it was almost impossible to do that. Food was food, and drink was drink, and never the twain could meet. Thankfully there’s more of a move towards mixing eating and drinking in Ireland but still, in most pubs that offer food, the food tends to diminish as the night goes on. I would say, look, get rid of all that red tape, all of that legislation, use proper planning to ensure that you don’t have neighbourhoods turning into Bourbon Street, but I don’t think that the approach of the current minister is doing that.

OT: What’s your opinion of Michael McDowell?
CC: I think McDowell is a very sharp and articulate individual. I enjoy shadowing him – given that we share the same portfolios of Justice, Equality and Law Reform – but I do think he’s slightly to the right of Genghis Khan in many of his political views. And I think that the vision of Ireland that the PD’s are putting forward is a very bleak one. It seems to represent a corporate state rather than a caring society. Both the Green Party and I personally come from a view that there very much is such a thing as society and that one of the things that we have going for Ireland is that sense of community and sense of society. I think we should do more in law to encourage that and protect it.

OT: Your Green Party colleague Patricia McKenna MEP recently signed a petition calling for the legalisation of all drugs. Do you agree?
CC: Well, I think the view of the party is that we would like to see a move towards decriminalisation of certain softer drugs. And we’d certainly love to see the resources of the Gardai being used to address more serious issues. And it’s very interesting to look across the water at the UK, where a very clear message is going out that the police over there will not be concentrating too much of their resources on tackling people who are using cannabis in a recreational way. Nonetheless I think the message we would be trying to put out is that a better lifestyle is a drug-free lifestyle. And I think there are concerns over cannabis and there are studies that link long-term use of cannabis with an increase in schizophrenia. And I’d be a little bit nervous about that – though I’d be much more concerned about alcohol and its effects on society.

OT: Have you ever experimented with any illegal drugs yourself?
CC: I’ve certainly used some drugs but, you know, I suffer from asthma and I’d be very worried about smoking drugs myself. And I’ve said that and put it on record that I’ve certainly smoked drugs in the past – but you don’t really get the time to do that when you’re a TD!

OT: Have you ever tried cocaine… ecstasy… LSD?
CC: No, no, no – I haven’t (shakes head). God, I’m coming across like some prude! (laughs) I think really the point I put across is that the Green Party and myself would love to see a move away from this targeting of recreational users of softer drugs. We think that would allow the guards more time to concentrate on the more serious crimes in Irish society. And I think a draconian approach to drug-taking is not the right way to go.

OT: What’s your opinion on the proposed tobacco smoking ban?
CC: Em… (pauses) I do feel the public have a right to be protected from the effects of passive smoking. As I’ve said in many e-mails to the lobby groups who’ve contacted me, my late mother smoked all her life and died principally from emphysema.

OT: Did she die fairly young?
CC: No. She died in her seventies but emphysema is not a nice way to die. And I’m asthmatic myself and if I’m exposed to a very smoky atmosphere in a pub then it takes its toll on me the following day.

OT: Sorry – I’ll put this out… [hotpress stubs out a half-smoked B&H]
CC: Thanks! And I think if pubs are public houses we should take more steps to protect people.

OT: Surely they could simply install ventilation and have designated areas for smokers and for non-smokers?
CC: It might be possible to do that, but I haven’t seen any great signs of the vintners’ lobby committing themselves to that. And I think it’s very important to protect staff from passive smoking.

OT: What if the staff are smokers themselves?
CC: still think there’s a duty of care from the employer to ensure that their workers are protected – not only against themselves but against any harm that might result from others. Cut to the chase, Olaf, smoking kills thousands of people in Ireland every year. There are other concerns, such as road deaths, which kill hundreds of people but smoking… (pauses). I would really concur with Dr. Luke Clancy when he says that smoking is one of the huge scourges of Irish society at the moment and if we can tackle that without being too puritanical, I think that is the trick.

OT: How are the Greens perceived within Leinster House? Are you seen as a bunch of useless hippy vegetarians or are you taken seriously by the other parties?
CC: I think there’s been a gradual thawing of the rather glacial looks that we seemed to get from the rest of Leinster House. But Leinster House is like a crazy gentleman’s club. I remember a TD saying that to me years ago and it certainly feels like what I would think a London gentleman’s club is like. I mean, this whole brouhaha about not wearing a tie is just one aspect of that. But you’re not even allowed bring a laptop into the Dail chamber. You’re kind of escorted from the building!

OT: Why don’t they allow laptops?
CC: I think it’s just a rather fossilised institution. And the kind of discussion, the kind of debate, bears very little resemblance to what people are thinking out in the real world or to the concerns that people have in the real world. It’s just a bunch of auld fellas, for the most part, concerned with the kinds of things that auld fellas are concerned with.

OT: Themselves and their own interests?
CC: Well, there’s a lot of that to it. I have to be careful there because all six of the Green Party TD’s are male – although we have two female MEP’s, Patricia McKenna and Nuala Ahern. But I do think that the Green idea brings a bit of fresh thought into Leinster House. And I think the kind of concerns that we have about environmental issues, about leaving the world in a better state than we found it, are part of all of that. From what I can see in Leinster House there’s a real idolising of modernity. If it’s new, if it’s big – it’s great! Replace the past, jump at the new! And I think you have to take a measured view of that. So I do think Leinster House is a bit of an anachronism, and I think the Greens have no small part to play in trying to modernise its procedures and make sure that the views of ordinary people on the outside are heard.

OT: What are your thoughts on the recent curtailment of the Freedom of Information Act?
CC: We were apocalyptic about the constrictions on the Freedom of Information Act and we think it is a very dangerous route to go down, to limit the right of the public to know. One of the principles of Green politics is a belief in transparency and openness. In fact, as the last few months showed with regard to my own personal affairs, I’ve tried to be as transparent and open as possible. But I think there’s much more of an onus on government to be clear as to how it goes about things.
And I was particularly incensed at the introduction of fees in order to access government documents. I think that is a significant U-turn and a significant clampdown on the public’s right to know. I really admire how they approach this in Scandinavian countries, where you as Joe Public can go in and look at all the correspondence that a cabinet minister has received that morning. And I think that’s the way we should go.

OT: Do you think the way the Irish media operates is good or bad for Irish politics?
CC: I’ve a lot of respect for the media and, indeed, my partner is a journalist. I think the media more and more has a very important… what’s the word?… gate-holding role. What I’m trying to say is that its treatment of issues is crucial and given that the soundbites are getting shorter – we seem to have gone from fifteen minutes of fame down to fifteen seconds – it’s very crucial that the media are objective in how they operate. And I would have concerns about the ownership of certain media titles. Not to single out any group in particular, but I think it’s important to look at who owns the media when you look at the kind of message that is coming out there.
But one of the things I like about Ireland is that there is a certain healthy independent media, whether it be in magazines or in radio, and indeed on the web. I also think that the independent radio or local radio is very important as well and I was outraged at the clampdown on a lot of the pirate radio stations in Dublin. Some of my favourites – like Phantom FM or Jazz FM – have been off the air, and they were often the stations I’d listen to. I think that’s a real loss. And I hope that some way can be found to give much more of a voice to smaller independent radio stations. Surely the airwaves are broad enough to give those stations a place?

OT: Should corporate donations to political parties be capped?
CC: Here in Ireland we still have massive corporate donations and Fianna Fail is one of the major benefactors there. We would like to ban corporate donations entirely because we think that they unduly influence policy. Quite often it’s not what the government does, it’s what the government doesn’t do in response to lobbying that can be the most sinister aspect.

OT: Should prostitution be legalised in Ireland?
CC: I think it’s very important… (long pause)… that women are treated fairly. I’m not so sure whether legalising prostitution would be the best way of doing that. I’d like to see… Em, it’s a difficult one. I know that in New Zealand they’ve recently decriminalised prostitution and I know that the Green Party was supportive of the move that they made there. I’d love to see a study on it in Ireland. I’d love to see what groups like Women’s Aid or the group, whose name escapes me, who’re working with prostitutes in Ireland. I’d love to see their views and I’d listen to their views very carefully before putting my foot in it as a politician. I don’t think I’m really the best person to comment. Even though I’m Justice spokesperson, I think the views of people on the frontline are much more important.

OT: Can you ever see the Greens in power in Ireland?
CC: After the last election I think it could be a lot closer than I would’ve thought previously. Yes, I can. I could easily see us going into coalition. It’s always a dangerous thing to do but if we could go into coalition on our terms then it could be worth doing. We’re ideologically driven, but we’re results driven as well. I think we could articulate what we want to achieve in government very easily and what would be the right kind of terms to participate in government. But for the moment I think we play a very effective role and we’re punching above our weight as an opposition party.

OT: Do you have a motto in life?
CC: I suppose that would have to be the Condomi catchphrase – ‘Play Safe & Have Fun!’ (laughs) And hopefully make a contribution to fixing the problems of the world along the way.