Fill it to the brim, Jim: The exclusive Hot Press interview with Jim Daly

Jim Daly first started making a splash on the national political scene back in 2012.

It certainly appeared odd when Enda Kenny asked Daly – then a relatively obscure backbench TD – to front Fine Gael’s campaign for the Children’s Referendum.

But it was a good move. The man in question was more than able to articulate the Yes side’s position – and with an added zeal that comes from his own first-hand experience of being a foster parent.
I first met the West Cork TD on that campaign trail – and was struck by how much of a doting dad he really was. Over a glass of water in the Dáil’s cafeteria, Jim proudly showed me photographs of his four beautiful biological children and a framed picture of one of the toddlers that was in his foster care at the time. Jim told me how he was inspired to foster children because his Estonian wife Virge’s own mother grew up in foster care.

Jim has now stepped up to the plate again with the Eighth Amendment to advocate for a Yes vote. Nobody expected it. He’s such a doting dad who fosters kids, he might have been a stereotypical ‘pro-lifer’.

It's fascinating. Unlike Simon Coveney, who dithered on the issue, Jim represents what’s perceived to be a conservative constituency. But he hasn’t let that cow him. He’s very clear: Irish women should be able to terminate a pregnancy in their own country.

Having supported Leo Varadkar for the Fine Gael leadership, Jim is now Minister of State With Responsibility for Mental Health. It’s a tough gig. But as he reveals in this exclusive
Hot Press Interview, Jim has got some potentially game-changing initiatives that he wants to introduce. The question remains:

Can he make a difference? Jim can talk the talk. But can he walk the walk? The jury is out. But he’s certainly got a lot to say in this candid interview…

Jason O’Toole: Growing up, how important was chasing girls and sex for you?
Jim Daly: The same as any other teenager.
No more and no less.

How old were you when you lost your virginity?
I think I was 17. That’s so long ago, it’s long forgotten!

What type of music were you into growing up?
Anything in the charts. I would’ve been following Top of the Pops. Bryan Adams. U2. I was a publican in my early twenties. Myself and my sister bought a pub in Rosscarbery, West Cork when I was 21. I had some big bands down there.

Like whom?
I brought down The Wolfe Tones, Don Baker, Mary Black, Frances Black, Stockton’s Wing. They weren’t my music choices as such. I was a music promoter, I suppose, before turning Minister. So, my connection with music really would’ve been my days in the pubs.

When was this?
’95 to 2001. They were very daring, entrepreneurial days – bringing big bands down cost loads of money. Some were massive successes and would make you lots of money. Some were a flop.

As a former publican, what are your thoughts on Minister Shane Ross’s drink-driving laws?
I’ve mixed views. Road safety is paramount. Yet there is an issue of rural isolation. I have zero tolerance for somebody who has seven or eight pints and drives home. But there are people who have a glass of wine with their dinner, or may go to the pub in the evening. And rural isolation is a huge challenge. I don’t believe there’s a hierarchy of lives when it comes to loss of life. A life lost on the road is tragic beyond all words – but a life lost to rural isolation down in a remote rural area of West Cork is equally tragic. It’s important to keep the balance right, where somebody does go and have one or two pints in the afternoon. In rural Ireland, you have to drive there. You can’t get the Luas or a taxi. So, there is a challenge in that. But road safety has to be adhered to and I respect that very much.

What about Danny Healy Rae’s proposal to bring in a special license that allows you to have a few drinks and drive home?
No. I wouldn’t support that at all.

Did you ever have a drink or two and drive home yourself?
I’m sure I did! Back in the day, I certainly did. I think attitudes have changed significantly over the years. And education is key. People are becoming more and more aware of it. And drink driving is becoming less and less acceptable.

So, you were over the limit yourself in the past. Alan Kelly said the same in his recent Hot Press Interview. At the time, it seemed to be acceptable.
Yeah, absolutely. Drink driving was acceptable. And I probably grew up in that transitional period where it went from being acceptable to unacceptable.

How many pints is the most you ever had on you, driving home?
Oh, I don’t know! I wouldn’t be proud of that! I wouldn’t be proud of my past in that respect. I’m sure, back in the day, in rural Ireland we took chances that were reckless. And, as I said, we were growing up in an era of (when it was acceptable) – thankfully people are realising the dangers of drink-driving. But I certainly would have been a bold boy at some stage when it came to drink-driving as a young man down in West Cork. As a lot of people did. I’m going back almost 30 years at this stage.

Bertie Ahern once famously said in a Hot Press interview that he could knock back half dozen pints of Bass and have no problem driving home. Could you do that?
Ah, no. I’m not a good driver at the best of times. So, I certainly wouldn’t claim that I could handle myself after alcohol.

People should be allowed to have a few drinks and not be lectured to, right?
Yeah. People are becoming allergic to an over-regulatory style environment. People shouldn’t be lectured. It’s about awareness and education. But we do have a drinking culture, there’s no doubt, that’s unacceptable in certain forms – the volume of alcohol that is consumed. I think an awful lot of it is done at home now. And young people particularly drink large amounts of spirits – in flats and apartments. There’s a huge medical cost and a huge financial cost. Look at the emergency departments any night of the weekend: you’ll see the abuses of alcohol. So, it’s not necessarily about whether we should or shouldn’t drink alcohol. It’s about our relationship with it.

Have you ever been in a car accident?
I was a victim of a car accident in Spain. I don’t know an awful lot of the detail of it because I was actually asleep in the car. I put the seat back and closed my eyes – and I woke up in an ambulance. It happened in 2006. Did my life flash before my eyes? There wasn’t time for it. I passed out immediately with loss of blood. I was seriously injured. I ruptured something internally and had major internal bleeding. I was in hospital for 12 days and made a full recovery.

You mentioned drink-driving. Have you ever consciously broken any other law?
I have. And I’ve been in court and have a conviction for it. And that’s for selling alcohol after hours.

Really! I didn’t know that!
(Laughs) Yeah, so, I wear it heavily, that conviction for selling alcohol after hours. At 10 minutes to one in the morning.

Do you feel guilty?
Well, I paid my atonement. I paid my due to the State at time.

Do you think it’s ridiculous to be convicted for something like that?
Ah, sure, it’s not really because, it’s not a criminal offence. I don’t have a criminal record. You have a conviction alright. It would’ve been on my license at the time, but I don’t think it exists anywhere. But it doesn’t bother me. Look, there’s laws there – and laws are there to be kept. I’m now a lawmaker – I was a lawbreaker!

Did you ever smoke marijuana?
No. (Laughs)

What’s your views on legalising marijuana?
At the moment, there is a licence that you can get medicinal cannabis for pain. And the medical results are good. As the debate goes on, I don’t know where we go with legalising harder drugs. Is legalising the way to go forward or is it not? I don’t have hugely strong views on it.

What about legalising marijuana generally ?
I’d be open to the debate. I’d be open to hear the argument.

What about the Portuguese Model? If you’re arrested with possession of drugs for personal use you don’t go to prison.
I think prison is the last resource. It should be avoided at all costs. It is a serious flaw in our system, is imprisonment. But that doesn’t mean that legalisation is the answer either. There’s community service and educational programmes – and things like that would be far more constructive ways of dealing with it than prison.

With regards mental health, what legislation are you aiming to introduce?
I’ve identified two keys projects that I want to deliver. One is a mental health phone line, the equivalent of the 999 physical health line that exists. My difficulty with mental health is, if I have a mental health issue in the morning I’m not sure where I’d turn to. There’s Alone, Jigsaw, Pieta House, Aware, Samaritans, Childline – you know, who do you call? Then, there’s all these other organisations locally that are providing services for mental health. But I don’t know how a GP can be expected to send you to the most appropriate place because there are so many of them. And I’m not sure we have any proper directory of them.

So, what’s the plan?
I want to establish one dedicated phone line number that would be for all mental health issues. You ring that line and you say, ‘I’ve an anxiety in my stomach that won’t lift for the last four weeks. And it’s getting worse. And I can’t lift out of it’. And they’ll say, ‘We’re going to put you in touch with a local therapist or maybe a councillor or maybe a psychologist’. There are different levels of intervention and I think it’s important that we have a one-stop shop, to signpost people.

What else will it entail?
We’re going to do a text service as well because a lot of the young people are happier texting than actually picking up the phone. And we’ll do an online version of it. So, that’s a portal, or a key gateway into mental health services.

And the second one?
It’s difficult to deliver physical health online, but I’m trying to pilot online delivery of mental health services. Users can come into the GP centre, the local primary care centre, and there will be an online screen and you can deliver therapies. The HSE and the department is going to pilot a number of those in primary care centres around Ireland. And if we can establish that model, that could revolutionise how we treat people.

When will you have these operational?
At the turn of the new year, I flagged it with my department and with the HSE that I want both of these to be established. I’d be hoping that that I’ll have significant progress on both by the end of the year. You can’t just click your fingers and turn it on. It may take up to 18 months.

So, in 18 months times this phone line, online and text service for young people will operational?
I’d be inclined to say 12 months from now. I would be hopeful.

Should people with mental health issues be forced to go into an A&E?
In an ideal world, no. In most cases, the A&E department is how you get into the hospital. I think there needs to be a separate door for people. I was recently in Australia; they were telling me that’s how they deal with it: you still present to A&E but when it’s mental health you’re taken into a room of calm and you’re taken out of all the razzmatazz and the bright lighting and the chaos in A&E.

Would you like to be leader of Fine Gal in the future?
It’s not something I’d be looking at here and now. Everybody who is in the parliamentary party has an ambition to progress. My ambition right now would be to be a senior minister some day. But I’m very happy with what I’m doing at the moment.

Surely you’d love to be Taoiseach.
Well, I’d love to be a millionaire some day too. But I don’t go out playing the Lotto every day.

I thought you’d already be a millionaire after selling your bar during the height of the Celtic Tiger.
(Laughs) If you want to be leader of the party you must have a plan and devise it, and (be) calculating and working it – I’m certainly not in that space.

Would you like to see Michael D run again?
I’ve mixed views on Michael D. running again. He’s a very fine President. He’s been an excellent ambassador. But I think 14 years of a president is too long, to be honest. It has nothing to do with Michael D. I have the utmost regard for him. But I’m open to an election.

Everybody seems to frown upon the idea of going into coalition with Sinn Féin.
I have no ideological objection to Sinn Féin being part of a government. I just think, on a policy platform, it would be very difficult to agree a programme for government between Fine Gael and Sinn Féin. But, look, politics is the art of doing – and who knows? I do see some serious difficulties with agreeing on policy – particularly in finance, taxation and those kind of things. We have very different outlooks. So, I’m not sure that a programme for government could be agreed – but I’ve seen a lot of things in politics in my time that I never thought I would see; and I’m sure that I’ll see a lot more that I never thought possible.

If a deal could be hammered out, you’d be open to listening?
Yeah. I don’t have an ideological objection. We live in a democracy. The will of the people has to be respected – and Sinn Féin’s mandate is as legitimate as any other party, as far as I’m concerned.

Sinn Féin’s image has shifted considerably now with Gerry Adams stepping down.
Yeah. But that wouldn’t have changed my view. I happen to think Mary Lou is quite a formidable performer and a very able politician. But it didn’t matter to me whether it was Gerry Adams or Mary Lou in charge because I don’t have that ideological block.

Do you still foster children?
We do, yeah.

How many children do you have with you at the moment?
Two foster children.

It must be emotionally difficult becoming attached and one day having to say goodbye?
Yeah. But there are challenges with every child, foster or biological. There’s challenges in every walk of life and fostering is no different. They can be incredibly rewarding on loads of levels and incredibly challenging – just like fatherhood is. They have their highs and they have their lows. But I would recommend anybody, who was ever thinking about fostering, to go that extra step and engage in the process.

How did you get involved?
My wife Virge was the motivation. Her mum had come from a foster home and she had a foster sister growing up. It was part of the pre-nuptial agreement! She had said that she would like to foster children. And I was kind of, ‘Yeah yeah yeah’. To be fair to her, she pursued it. I’m delighted she did because it has been just an incredible experience. And the amount of love and joy, and happiness and heartache, and all the rest that has been brought into our lives as a result has been just amazing.

Was she shocked to hear that you’ve 10 siblings?
(Laughs) She still is! Yeah. She has only one brother.

Was it difficult for your biological children to adjust to having new children in the family?
No, to be fair to them. They were all very young when we started so they grew into it. We see so many debates going around today’s society – whether it’s abortion, whether it’s marriage equality. I think my children have a grasp of life that goes beyond a lot of kids their own age because of being exposed to fostering. And they understand now that life isn’t black and white.

What’s your view on gay people being able to foster or adopt?
Gay people are perfectly entitled to foster children. I have absolutely no difficult with that. A gay couple can provide an equally loving, supportive and comforting home as a straight couple. And with adoption, I have no objection to it whatsoever. I have no difficulty whatsoever with a gay or straight couple – I don’t see any differences. There could be a lot more love and care and compassion within a gay couple’s home and environment than there might be in straight couple’s.

You come from a constituency that’s seeen as very conservative. Yet you support repealing the Eighth Amendment.
I bring an awful amount of conviction to that particular debate. I suppose my own family experience in fostering children and all of that has helped me to realise that not every pregnancy is ideal or welcome or can be accommodated. I’m as pro-life as the next person and want to ensure that life is protected in as many forms as possible. But, again, it’s about acknowledging the reality.

The reality is that Irish women are having abortions regardless…
What I always look at when I look at an issue like this is: bring it home. And if it was my daughter or if it was my sister pregnant and – for whatever reason – it was posing a threat to her well-being, to her health, that she couldn’t manage that pregnancy or carry it through, what options do I want her to have? Do I think that we should be forcing her – under a cloud of darkness and guilt and fear – onto a plane to go to England to avail of the abortion? Or do I think we in Ireland should have the capacity as a society to embrace this issue? And I think we have the wherewithal to embrace it.

Ireland is certainly moving forward…
We are the country, after all, that elected the son of an Indian immigrant who happens to be a gay man as leader. I believe we have the capacity to deal with crisis pregnancies on our own shores. And the days of closing an eye and pushing it under the carpet and letting Irish girls go abroad under duress every day have to end.

In the current issue of Hot Press there’s an interview with Joan Burton who was adopted and she’s pro-choice. You foster children – and you’re pro-choice.
There definitely is a contributing factor there. Life teaches you, it really does: where you work; who you come in contact with; travel, which can broaden the mind. So things like fostering children or being an adopted child: it gives you pause for thought on these issues. I’m not claiming a moral high ground. I’m just saying: that would’ve been a contributing factor, no doubt about it.

Have you been receiving any abuse or death threats over your stance?
Yeah. My dad has got some vile post – pictures of foetuses. He’s got some hate mail. He’s 87. Church-going. God-fearing. He’s into his religion and all that. But he has no difficulty with my decision; he’s a man of the world and respects that.

Have you personally received any threats?
I haven’t received any personally. Politically, of course, you get a bit of a backlash. It has been a very respectful debate – but I expect that the ante will be upped very soon. There’s actually been people delivering pictures of me and my former Fine Gael colleague, Noel Harrington, calling us baby killers. But, look, that’s a misunderstanding on people’s parts. I think that people have very passionate views and it’s a very divisive issue and you can look at this from either side. Somebody arrived to my wife last night at home and returned her membership card of the Fine Gael party, and said, “Give that to your husband and tell him I’ll never vote again vote for him or the party.” But that doesn’t deter me from doing the right thing.

Might that cost you your seat in the next general election?
I don’t exist in politics through fear of losing my seat. I don’t operate under fear. It’s very sad to see politicians who live by fear of losing their seat.

Simon Coveney had a dramatic change of mind on the Eighth. Some people credit you for this, with the speech you gave, about the need for political responsibility.
Yeah, that gave me pause for thought when I saw some of the media commentary after my statement. I did not mention any other politician. I was very clear who I was speaking to there – and that was my electorate. That article was written for my local paper. There would’ve been nothing in it for me to be kicking Simon Coveney in that article. So, that was never ever my intention.

A lot of people were very surprised when he first came out against the 12 week provision.
I don’t know where Simon Coveney would’ve been traditional on it. I’ve never had that conversation personally with him. I respected it. I respect the difficulty many politicians have with it. I think the term ‘pro-life’ is just an unfortunate term because the opposite to pro-life is to suggest you’re ‘pro-death’ – that’s so wrong and so misleading, and not helpful to the debate. I think pro-decision maybe. Pro-decision might be a better term. It up to each and every one of us to go with our conscience on this issue.

Why did you support Leo for leadership?
I was particularly impressed with Leo Vardakar. He was the better candidate. And politics is about election as well as doing the right thing. And he had both the ability and real leadership to make informed, intelligent decisions.

People assumed that you would’ve supported the local Cork lad.
There was an element from the Fine Gael Party and from the membership, ‘Why wasn’t I backing the local candidate?’ But I think, over time, I’ve communicated that reasonably well to most members. I think leadership is too important to align it with a geographical or localised way of assessing the leadership.

Did you betray Simon Coveney?
Absolutely not. And furthermore, I don’t think Simon feels I betrayed him. I had lengthy discussions with Simon on the issue. It was very cordial, very respectful. I advised Simon of it before I advised anybody else publicly. Simon understood where I was coming from.

Are you religious?
I certainly would be a spiritual person.

So, is there a God?
I do believe in a God, yeah.

Is God a man or a woman?
(Laughs) I’ve never given that philosophical question much thought.

I thought you might’ve said a woman because Eastern European women tend to be feisty and outspoken.
(Laughs) There’s some Goddess there too, yeah! There are some Goddess in Eastern Europe!

When you first met your wife, did you feel, “I can’t believe my luck”?
(Laughs) You really don’t expect me to answer that! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So, I can’t account for how she perceives me.

Ah, come on! Did you never think to yourself, ‘I’m punching above my weight. I’m a lucky man!’?
No – I’m very ambitious! (Laughs)

Was it love at first sight?
It was, yeah. She’d been working as a security guard in Tallinn, and herself and her friends wanted a bit of an adventure, to travel for a few months. She had planned to go back to college. They were supposed to come over to pick strawberries in Kerry and the three of them ended up in West Cork working in a hotel. So she was working in the hotel alongside the bar I had. We met early on – and the rest is history. It was Friday the 13th – unlucky for others, but it was lucky for me. The three of them ended up marrying Irish guys.

Did you ask her out the first night?
I did actually, yeah. We’re together 18 years at this stage.

Did you get down on bended knee to propose?
I did, over in Lanzarote. We were swimming in the sea when I asked her to marry me. It was out of the blue (Boom boom – Sub-Ed). I got down on one knee beside the water and I asked her would she marry me. It was a lovely moment. We went and picked a ring afterwards.

Does she ‘wear the pants’?
Oh, absolutely.

Maybe she should be involved in politics.
I’ve said that she should be running the country and I’d be a half-handy house husband.

Going back to religion, would you see all religions as equal?
No. I think some religions are more probably attractive than others. I remember telling my late uncle who was a priest – the Lord have mercy on him. When I introduced my wife to him, the first question he asked was, “Where are you from?” And she said Estonia. And this man was in his eighties and he said, ‘Oh, Listowel! A lovely part of the country’.
So, I said, ‘No, no, Father. Not Listowel: Estonia’. And straight away, he said: ‘And what religion are you?’ And she said, ‘I’m Lutheran’. And he said, ‘Oh, one of my favourite religions’. I think there is a hierarchy of religions. I’ve been at the Lutheran masses in Estonia. There are women priests, there are married priests; you know, things like that. Some religions are just more progressive than others.

What about Scientology and the Moonies?
To be honest, I really don’t know enough about any of them.

Do you think Christians are more right than Muslims and Jews?
You see, again, like, the belief base is one argument. You know, what they believe in. But it’s the practise of religion than is difficult – and that’s where, I suppose, the challenge is. I mean, Catholic religion not so long ago forbade eating meat on Friday: it was a sin. So, sex before marriage is a sin. It’s those kind of difficulties that present to religion. But the actual belief base and Christian base, you know: God is good, love your neighbour and yourself, and all of those things are very noteworthy.

Some people view the Muslim religion as particularly anti-women.
I’m not an expert in world-wide religions, but I mean a lot of the practises that are put forward and that subjugate one gender over the other, and, you know, all of those kind of things – they’re difficult to comprehend.

Do you think there’s a heaven and hell?
I really don’t know. Is there an afterlife? Do we come back in another form? These are questions my children ask me sometimes and, quite frankly, I’m not able to answer. You think about them, but you don’t necessarily come to the conclusion that you’d like to get. In other words, come to an absolute theory on it. I don’t have one on that.