The Full Hot Press Interview with Ruth Coppinger TD

Ruth Coppinger burst onto the national political scene when – against the odds – she won the 2014 Dublin West by-election.

It is one of the toughest constituencies in the country. Other TDs in this four-seat include a certain Leo Varadkar and Joan Burton, who have held the two highest political posts in the country, as Taoiseach and Tánaiste.

A teacher by profession, Ruth started out politically working behind the scenes with the Socialist Party. Eventually, she replaced her party’s then most high profile member, Joe Higgins, on Fingal County Council in 2003. Step by step, since then, she had made impressive progress. Following her election to the Dáíl, she has become one of the leading voices on the Irish left. Under the co-operative Anti Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit banner, she has campaigned vociferously against the injustices of the capitalist system.

Ruth is often seen on the frontlines with protesters. She helped occupy a Nama-controlled building with homeless people back in 2016, in an effort to raise awareness of the housing crisis.

Coppinger was equally passionate on both the Same Sex Marriage Referendum, and the campaign to Repeal the 8th. Indeed, it’s hard to think of an underdog situation in which you won’t find her leading the charge.

And yet very little is known about the woman herself. We felt it was about time we rectified that with a Hot Press Interview…

Jason O’Toole: What type of character were you growing up?

Ruth Coppinger: I was tenth in a large family – so I’m not sure you had too much time to analyse your personality. I don’t think any of us are shy. I was outgoing and boisterous and chatty.

How many children did your parents have?

Twelve. Those were good old Catholic families. A lot of people would collapse if you told them that. They just wouldn’t believe that they were that size. But it wasn’t unknown at the time. You often had families of eight/ten.

It must’ve been hard for your parents to put food on the table.

Fair play to our parents, who were able to bring up a family of that size in those times. I’ve great memories, but it wasn’t an episode of The Waltons all the time. There was real poverty, but they did remarkably well. My dad was a barman. We got a council house in Nutgrove, in 1972, when I was about five – and only for that you can only imagine how difficult life would’ve been. At least you’re paying a reasonable rent – something that’s out of the reach of so many families right now with the housing crisis.

The average monthly rent in Dublin was €1,875 in March, according to a Daft report. Musician David Kitt said he’s been forced to move abroad as a result. Today FM presenter Kelly-Anne Byrne said she couldn’t afford to rent here anymore, and now commutes from Glasgow to Dublin to do her weekend stints on air.

I’m hearing about rents of €2,200, even €2,400. This is down to the fact that, for years, governments decided not to build public housing. In 1972, they built about 6,000. What was it last year? A couple of hundred. This is why we have a crisis of this scale – families being made homeless and people paying exorbitant rents. I feel for young people, stuck at home with their parents, right into their thirties, with no prospect of ever having an independent life.

What can the government do?

If there’s ever a sign that capitalism isn’t working for the majority, it’s in the housing crisis. We have sufficient public land for about 120,000 homes, according to Mel Reynolds, the housing academic. We have land-hoarding going on by the State – and by private developers. We have plenty of public money. It’s a myth that we don’t – there’s money in the strategic investment fund, in Nama. The banks have plenty of money now.

There is an argument that people on the left have no idea about how business works and that their understanding of economics is skewed badly.

I don’t think so. There’s plenty of people on the left who studied economics. I did it for my Leaving Cert (laughs). But, no, we actually study the economy in a more serious way probably than your backbench members of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. We study the world economy, what trends are taking place. Lots of people on the left would read The Financial Times, which is the voice of the financial establishment worldwide. So, I think we study it a lot more seriously. Don’t forget, when Joe Higgins was in the Dáil, anyone who questioned the orthodoxy about this soft landing that we were all going to have – when it was clear that there was going to be a financial crisis – was told to go off and commit suicide by Bertie Ahern. So, people on the left predicted the issues that have arisen – and continue to do so.

Did you have the opportunity to pursue a third level education?

I went to the College of Commerce in Rathmines and did journalism. I always wanted to be a writer. My role models would’ve been Nuala O’Faolain, Mary Holland and even Nell McCafferty (a former Hot Press columnist – JOT). Then I was going to branch out into writing novels (laughs). But obviously things took a different course. I did work in The Irish Times for a while, doing sub-editing, in the financial pages ironically. I went back and did a degree by night in UCD in the 1990s.

Did music play a big part in your youth?

Yeah, it would’ve been a huge part of growing up. One of my eldest brothers was a great music fan and had records by The Clash, The Boomtown Rats, all of that. Hot Press, NME, Smash Hits would’ve been in the house all the time. I would’ve gone to gigs and followed the indie music scene. I would’ve gone to see U2 when they started out. Then The Smiths. Many others. Obviously my music tastes have expanded a bit now; I follow blues and folk as well. It’s a huge part of political expression. People like Billy Bragg and movements like Red Wedge. I would’ve been following bands like Stiff Little Fingers, who were putting forward an alternative to sectarianism in the North.

You mentioned Hot Press. I’m sure you read the big political interviews.

Yeah. Hot Press, at that time, would’ve been seen as very daring. I remember some of the interviews and politicians speaking out in a more relaxed way. And Hot Press has played an important role for young people over the years. At that time, you ran out and you bought the magazine and you brought it home.

Who was your teenage crush growing up?

I thought that was all too girly. I don’t think I had any particular crush. I don’t think I ever had posters on the wall – and I’m not just saying that. I was never a posters on the wall type.

How old were you when you lost your virginity?

(Laughs) I was a teenager, put it that way. I was in quite a long relationship when I was a teenager, from 16 up to 21. I was young but probably the same as everybody else really.

How important was chasing boys and sex?

Probably the same as other people. I do remember our all-girls school went on a retreat with the local boys school, and that’s where I met the boyfriend that I was to be with for about five or six years. It’s funny how you find every opportunity to meet up with somebody else.

Were you a bit of a tomboy?

I don’t think that I went around dressed as a tomboy, but yeah, I was. I was very aware of rigid gender roles. On a ‘no uniform day’ at school I went in wearing a shirt and tie (laughs). I would’ve been going to the library and reading feminists and was very aware of the oppression of women in Irish society under the Church in the ’80s. In the shadow of the Eighth Amendment, which was introduced in 1983, I was a teenager. I remember at school on a Monday morning you’d hear people talking about the fear that they might be pregnant. It was like Russian roulette. There was no contraception. And young people were obviously engaging in sexual activity. Withdrawal seemed to be the method of contraception. It was absolutely outrageous putting young people through that. I was very aware that women were discriminated against.

Did not having condoms put you off having a sex life?

That’s the point: it didn’t really put anyone off having sex, because it’s a natural instinct to have sex. I was in an all-girls school and we had people who became pregnant at 14, who had to leave school. There was a number of girls who had very early pregnancies. And that was around the time the Eighth Amendment was being foisted onto our constitution by the Catholic right – pretending that people didn’t have sex in Ireland outside marriage. It doesn’t put people off.

So you lived with that fear of becoming pregnant?

Yeah. Everyone did. To get access to contraception you had to skulk around, maybe to the Well Woman Centre. You’d have to literally skulk around a back street looking for a clinic and make sure that somebody didn’t see you going in. It really is reprehensible that people were put through this roulette system of wanting to engage in sex, but not being able to do it safely for so long.

Contraception was illegal in Ireland between 1935-1980. Condoms were only made available to purchase over the counter in 1992.

Mary Robinson tried to put a Bill through the Seanad in 1971 – but she couldn’t get a hearing. The contraception train happened in ’71. But it took a full 14 or 15 years before any liberalisation of the law took place under Haughey – and even that was opposed by the Church. It’s just incredible how conservative, and how in thrall to the Catholic Church, the political establishment in Ireland has been for the last 100 years. That’s why I think the Repeal referendum was so incredibly inspirational.

Leo Varadkar called it a quiet revolution…

Varadkar saying it was a quiet revolution, I think, really annoyed the people who were active in the campaign. Because it wasn’t quiet for us – we were shouting and we were told to tone it down. We were watching our Bills being voted down in the parliament. And we were marching on the streets – in particular for over five years since the death of Savita. It was the biggest political movement – and the biggest youth movement – in this country for years. It’s an incredible turning point in relation to the Church’s power in this country. It was led and driven in particular by young women and LGBT people. That’s what forced the politicians to end the hypocrisy. When we raised Repeal in 2015, people like Leo Varadkar and Joan Burton, when she was Tánaiste, said there was no appetite for change. That was the mantra. These people have been forced on their journeys that we keep hearing about. We now have to force them on more journeys.

Fine Gael likes to give the impression they were at the forefront of the Repeal movement.

With the narrative over who won this referendum, there was an attempt in particular by Leo Varadkar and Simon Harris to claim that mantle at the end, which I think is wrong. And it should be resisted. It’s rewriting history, because at every single turn for the last five years the political establishment had to be forced kicking and screaming to acknowledge this issue. They were very late doing that, and even then it was obviously only some of them. So, I think the referendum has shown how Ireland is actually much more progressive than the political elite would’ve had us believe. I read some of your interviews with politicians, say a year ago, and they were still talking about fatal foetal abnormalities as the only ground upon which they’d consider allowing abortion. Look what’s been blown open since then. Abortion that actually will cater for at least 92 or 95 percent of cases. And that’s been imposed on the establishment rather than them leading it.

Do you have any concerns about the legislation itself?

First of all, how bureaucratic is it going to be? Are you going to be forced to make two visits to a doctor? Are women going to be forced to take the abortion pill in the surgery? These are huge practical questions because if that’s the case it will create extra barriers. Abortion now is a relatively easy medical procedure, the abortion pill in particular. You don’t even need to go to a doctor. Telemedicine sites are doctor-run and you can have a consultation online and you go and get your prescription, and you take the pill in the comfort of your own home, with a friend or family. Judging by the way some of the debate went during the referendum, where they over-stated the dangers of the abortion pill, on the Yes side as well, I can see attempts being made to force women to take the pill in a doctor’s surgery. We have to make sure that women aren’t made to take the pill in a doctor’s surgery, and then they’re having an abortion while they’re travelling home on public transport.

Do you have any other issues with the proposed legislation?

I had a quick speed-read of the legislation. Their definition of ‘‘health’ will have to be gone through, because it seemed to be a higher threshold in the legislation than was spoken of before. The other issue is this waiting period where women have to ‘cool off’. They can’t make a decision for themselves; they have go home for 72 hours and rethink it. It’s pathetic. It’s not something that’s in any recommendation by the WHO or anywhere else. In fact, they say that those things shouldn’t be put in. They’re being removed in other countries. But they were put in there as a sop, to get some right wing TDs to be able to say there’s restrictions there. So, I think there’ll be big issues with the legislation. We’ll have to see how the debate goes. But, overall, it’s a huge victory.

The government should be focused now on separating Church and State…

They’ve loosened some of the bonds between Church and State, but we shouldn’t expect that they’ll naturally come to the conclusion that Church and State should be separated. The majority, I would say of the rest of the population, have come to that conclusion. Tackling Church control of hospitals and schools is a bit more serious than even same-sex marriage, because it goes to the heart of who owns the land, who owns the buildings. Are we going to take it from them, are we going to nationalise these institutions? I wouldn’t just think that we’re on a permanent straight line to progress.

Will everyone involved in the Repeal movement make their voices heard again?

The mass movement that we’ve built up will have to exert pressure to make sure it happens. Young people have seen their power – what can happen when you organise into a mass movement. We saw it with marriage equality, but it was probably more so even with Repeal. If we could turn our attention now to other agendas, that would challenge other inequalities and the lack of any political alternative in the Dáil. Hopefully people from the Repeal movement will become politically involved and fight on those issues of separation of Church and State.

What are your thoughts about euthanasia?

Everybody should be able to make that decision (to end their life) for themselves. It’s hard to believe that somebody would be prevented from taking that decision. People who argue against it tend to be religious people who are foisting their own beliefs on the rest of society – yet again. We’ve all seen people dying in painful circumstances. I saw it with my own mother. The idea that all pain can be controlled is a fallacy. We have to allow people to make the decision about how they die. And if they can’t physically do it themselves, to be assisted by somebody else.

Are you an atheist?

Totally.

What makes you so sure there isn’t a God?

Science. I’m glad to see that there’s a growing number of atheists because it’s definitely something 10 or 20 years ago you wouldn’t have been able to say as openly, whereas in the last census, there was a huge increase in the number of people professing no religion. And you actually have to consciously go to that box on the census form. I think more and more people are coming to those conclusions themselves.

What happens when you die?

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.

That’s pretty sad, isn’t it?

No. I think this idea that you have to have a crap life here, and put up with poverty, exploitation and misery, but in the hope of a better life in the next life – that’s a reactionary thing and holds people back from consciously changing things in this life – the one life that they have. You can see how religion has been used as a dampening down of change, because of the promise of a better life after death. We should just try to create the best possible life that we can now on this earth. We have the resources for everybody to have a decent life – a home, food, clothing. We all know what’s preventing that happening: wealth has been concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, generally a few white men at the top of society. According to Oxfam, eight or nine men control the same wealth as the bottom half of the planet. We have to fight to change things – and not hope and pray for something better in the next life.

Do you believe in aliens?

(Laughs) Even the term aliens is so loaded! I don’t think we should accept the idea that we are the only so-called intelligent life in the whole solar system. But the idea of aliens and little green men! There may be life somewhere else. Who knows?

Mary McAleese recently said that the Church’s view on homosexuality is evil. Do you agree?

Yeah. She’s been very vocal recently on that, which is to be welcomed. I have to say she wasn’t as vocal in the past. She would’ve been seen as somebody who was supportive of the Catholic Church – but through her own personal and family experience, she has changed. I suppose all the voices challenging from within are welcome. If you look at the marriage equality referendum, the Church took a backseat – they knew they hadn’t got a hope of winning. But they were actually very weak in the Repeal referendum as well – probably weaker than most of us would’ve thought. They’re very marginalised now. People have moved on and want them eliminated from controlling education and health. And that’s the next task.

You started off a trend last year of not standing for the Dáil prayer.

It’s absolutely ridiculous. The idea that they would foist a Dáil prayer on a parliament. It shows how backward the political establishment is that they thought that was something that they should do. It’s bad enough that we have to make sure that we’re just ‘not there’ when that happens – but what about people of other religions: Muslims, Hindus, etc? All the minority religions. We don’t have people of colour in the Dáil. We don’t have a representative sample of humanity of the population in the Dáil. This is just a further sign that ultimately it’s a so-called Christian or Catholic parliament, which is very negative. Of course it should be scrapped. I’m totally in favour of religious expression and freedom – and I would defend that for anybody. But I’m not in favour of it being brought into the public sphere. I don’t think the parliament should be reflective of any religion at all. Obviously the Angelus should go as well.

You just answered my next question. Should the Church collection be taxed?

(Laughs) I don’t know. But, interestingly, I do know that during the referendum, everybody else had to fully account for the money that they spent – all the different pro-Repeal groups – yet the Church was considered completely outside that. It doesn’t have to account to SIPO – the Standards in Public Office – for its spending. Why is there this exemption for religious finances?

The Church has a huge land-bank. Would it be a good idea to requisition a lot of that?

Yeah. The deal that was done with the Church (in 2002, by then-Minister for Education, Michael Woods of Fianna Fáil) for the abuse victims was awful. But they haven’t paid what they said they’d pay – so they haven’t even kept to that agreement. It’s definitely time to look at requisitioning Church lands and buildings. If we’re going to separate Church and State, we need to do that anyway.

I presume you didn’t have a Church marriage.

No. We had a marriage with five days notice and just told our family. To be honest, marriage gives legal rights, and it was easier to be married, and that was a factor in it all. It was just a family get together.

How long are you guys together?

Is it 12 years? 13 years.

Did you meet through politics?

No, no. I just met him in Dublin. He was working here, locally.

According to online sources, your husband has the same name as the Pakistan prime minister!

(Laughs) Yeah, the new leader of Pakistan, Imran Khan, the former cricket player. Khan would be a very common name, like Murphy or O’Brien here. He’s frequently asked is he the cricket player. He’s surprised that so many people know a Pakistani cricket player from 30 years ago.

Have you ever suffered snide remarks about being in a so called mixed relationship?

Yeah. I just take it with a pinch of salt. You’re going to get this online and you have to develop a thick skin. There’s a lot of Islamophobia in Ireland. You see it online a lot: ignorance and downright racism is there to be seen.

Regarding social media, have you received any abuse or death threats?

Of course I have. Any woman who puts her head above the parapet is going to get sexist abuse on social media. I received a number of written threats because of my pro-choice stance throughout the referendum campaign. They were also some verbal ones to our office, arising from feminist positions I took. We would’ve had a few letters and calls made to the office. It’s part and parcel, particularly because I’m a female TD associated with socialist, feminist issues, including violence against women, sexual harassment and other issues. So that’s going to upset some men who resent people raising these issues.

Did you report anything to the Gardai?

We went to the Guards recently because of one particular harassment case. There was a man showing up at party events and sending gifts to the Dáil, who we discovered had a history of violence against women. It was more somebody who was hanging around a lot. We decided to register it in case anything did happen. We’ve logged it – and some other threats – with the Gardai.

Have you experienced any sexism in the Dáil?

(Laughs) Yeah. There’s pathetic stuff. One TD winked when he was sitting in the chamber, which is pathetic. Does any man seriously think that any woman is going to be in any way attracted by somebody winking at them? It’s done to undermine you. It was typical of the gombeen buffoons that get elected in parts of the country. I think there was a feeling definitely that the Ceann Comhairle in the last Dáil had a particular issue where he seemed to cut women off much quicker. The best was: myself and Paul Murphy were walking along and a male TD approached us, and addressed Paul about the teachers’ protest that was taking place outside. He didn’t make eye contact with me at all, despite the fact that I was a teacher and a member of the union that was taking part in the protest.

Would you have concerns about the #MeToo movement?

Women don’t see the possibility of going to court, of following through a case against somebody for harassment or for rape or violence. Because the statistics show that only a tiny minority of convictions ever happen. It isn’t just women; I should say that men are also victims of sexual violence. People were using social media as a way of showing the scale of this, saying that they’d been a victim. I’ve heard some people saying that, ‘Oh, well, what if this could be used to witch hunt people?’ Obviously you would need to be careful of that. But what has tended to happen is that somebody speaks out about somebody, and 10 or 12 other people immediately come in and confirm a pattern.

But is it justice?

It’s not justice but it’s actually just. It can be justice in the sense that the people who are named, their sponsors or their employers or whatever have to consider if they’re going to continue with them. I don’t think #MeToo has gone far enough, to be honest with you. I think the other area that needs massive attention is intimate partner violence. Because there still seems to be an acceptance that violence is somehow okay if it’s committed by somebody that you had a relationship with. For example, people like Johnny Depp – he’s not being ostracised in Hollywood, despite having abused his former wife. So that’s a huge area that has be challenged.

Did you ever try marijuana?

Of course. Who hasn’t? It would be very unusual now for anyone not to have, I think.

Did you enjoy it?

Yeah.

Over ten years ago, Brian Cowen told Hot Press that unlike Bill Clinton he did inhale, which grabbed front-page headlines. More recently, there was very little reaction when TD Gino Kenny admitted that he still smokes hash and had dropped E in the past.

I know, yeah. There was a huge hypocrisy around illegal drugs when alcohol was being promoted by these self-same politicians. There’s a huge need for them to move forward now on medicinal cannabis. That’s a massive issue and it’s outrageous that they’re holding that back when people clearly need healthcare. Young people in particular, children.

Have you tried any other drugs?

No. No.

You paused there – you had to think about that.

(Roars laughing) Yeah. No, I haven’t actually.

Do you think marijuana should be legalised?

Yeah, well I certainly think that there has to be a massive discussion about it. And I certainly think that it’s no more dangerous than alcohol. So, yeah, I’m very open to it being considered. It’s ridiculous to criminalise people for smoking marijuana.

When was the last time you smoked marijuana?

Let’s just say a few years ago!

Were you a TD?

(Laughs) Also, just to say that there are negatives about marijuana as well. It can be quite paranoia-inducing. And for teenagers, when your brain is developing, etc, I don’t think we should just pretend that there isn’t an issue – because a lot of parents would say that there is. But, look, I know loads of people who smoke marijuana and life goes on for them. So, we need to end the hypocrisy.

What about the Portuguese Model?

I talked to a Guard recently; he said to me, ‘We should have the Portuguese Model’. It must be ridiculous for them – because so much of the crime in Ireland is related to people having drug addiction. Why would you criminalise and put people in jail for that? So, yeah, I’d be very open to the Portuguese Model. They’ve been saying for years that they’ll look at this, but it’s not a priority for them. It is still the case that it is a scourge in working class communities, where poverty and lack of prospects in life made the heroin epidemic such a central feature of life. That doesn’t affect the people that the political establishment represents. So they ignore it.

Leo Varadkar is also a TD in your constituency…

Leo Varadkar is an extremely conservative right-wing individual economically, but he’s also quite conservative socially. It’s laughable to see his attempts to restyle himself as a Macron (laughs). People like that wouldn’t have to be asked their position on abortion, whereas he’s had every position conceivable on abortion – from total opposition to then having to support the recent proposal. He’s done a 360 degree pivot. Even on LGBTQ rights, the idea someone who is himself gay would have opposed same sex adoption (in the past), says it all about the conservative nature of the individual. It’s quite funny that people are now styling themselves as social liberators of women. Don’t forget, Leo Varadkar would’ve been Minister for Health three years ago when ten women a day were taking the boat and plane for abortion – and it didn’t seem to faze him.

Are you trying to make Leo Varadkar sound like a fully-fledged member of the Republican Party?

I don’t think there’s too much doubt about that now. Didn’t he even go over and assist in the election there a few years ago?

Compare Leo Varadkar and Donald Trump!

I think economically there’re probably a few things that they’d agree on – low taxes on wealth would be a core value of Varadkar and Trump. I think the attack on welfare programmes: if Varadkar’s welfare cheats thing is a signal of what he’d like to do, I think that’s what Trump has done in the last budget. Now, I’m not saying Leo Varadkar is racist or homophobic like Trump – he’s not. But he didn’t stand up to him on the occasions that he could have, like last St. Patrick’s Day. He told us in the Dáil he was going to go over and give Trump his message. But he didn’t. He instead engaged in what he thought was a witty story. When he’s faced with people in power, he seems to crumble, or get overawed – similarly with Theresa May. I think economically Leo Varadkar probably admires Donald Trump.

Is Trump a madman?

No. I mean, I don’t know his mental health status, but it would be wrong to just view him in that way. He is racist and homophobic. I don’t think he’s mad – but obviously he doesn’t operate in a way that’s normal for politicians. Trump is a maverick. He’s extremely dangerous, and the people who he has around him in the Republican Party, the policies that they’re pursuing are very dangerous, as we’re seeing for immigrants and for people of colour. But also, lots of people who voted for him will feel it very quickly too.