RISE AND FOLLOW CHARLIE

Seán Haughey did not enjoy this interview. There were times, during our two and a half hour encounter in his Leinster House office, when he became incredibly uneasy. He squirmed in his seat. He fidgeted frantically. He gazed off for long, jittery moments at the mute Dáil proceedings on his TV monitor, silently wishing perhaps that he was there and not here.

He became most uncomfortable whenever he was asked a direct question about his own views. Seán Haughey does not like direct questions. The closest he ever came to being relaxed was when he was speaking about his father, the venerable C.J. Haughey. I can’t say that his face actually lit up because that is a physical impossibility, but it came damn close.

Thirty-three last November, this youngest chip off the most notorious block in Irish politics describes himself as “a full-time public representative.” A senator since 1987, his long quest to become a TD finally bore fruit in 1992 when he won the seat vacated by his Da in Dublin North-Central. Married with one son, he has recently been appointed National Chairman of Ógra Fianna Fail.

Charles Haughey casts a long shadow. On Seán Haughey’s desk this morning, beside his briefcase, lies a video cassette which one of the Dáil secretaries has especially asked him to bring in. It’s not a tape of Seán in action, in the Dáil, Seanad or Fianna Fáil parliamentary party. It’s a recording of Charlie’s recent appearance on Kenny Live.

Liam Fay: Now that the dust has begun to settle on the last government, what’s your assessment of Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Seán Haughey: I think that episode is now history. We have a new leader, Bertie Ahern, setting about to unite the party so I’ll leave it to the historians to answer that question.

He blew it though, didn’t he? Everything was going his way but he still managed to make a mess of things purely because of his own arrogance?

Yeah, I suppose you could say that, but there’s a new era in Fianna Fáil now where all the factions are united so I’m reluctant to dwell on the past. Obviously, the peace process is a great credit to him. He built on progress made there and in relation to the economy. Looking back on it, yeah, the decision to appoint Harry Whelehan was a mistake given the political consequences of it.

Most grassroots Fianna Fáilers must have wondered when they saw that Derek Spiers’ photograph of Harry Whelehan all gussied up in the hunting gear, ‘why the hell are we going to the wire for this guy?’

I respect Harry Whelehan. I don’t think he ever did anything wrong. It is only because of the political considerations that I say he shouldn’t have been appointed, no refection on the man himself or his integrity. Yes, he sails, he has a yacht in Howth and he hunts and so on. Obviously, he’s quite a privileged person. And, generally, in Fianna Fáil, we’re not inclined to perpetuate privilege. It’s not what we stand for as a republican party. I think many of us would feel that there are other people we could go out on a limb for too, like battered wives or whatever. I think that picture did hit home to the ordinary rank and file members that he is privileged and that there are other issues we should go out on a limb on.

Are you unnerved when you hear stories about Albert apparently canvassing for the Nobel Peace Prize and about his daughters writing letters to various Ambassadors in a bid to get their backing for his ‘campaign’?

I wouldn’t say it’s unnerving. (Pause) The only thing I would say in that regard is, yes, Albert Reynolds certainly played a role in the peace process but so did so many others including John Hume and John Major as well.

Can you imagine Charlie allowing you or any of your siblings to write similar letters on his behalf?

No, I can’t.

Hasn’t Albert taken all the ‘glory’ of the peace process for himself and tried to play down the contribution of people like Charlie Haughey?

It is certainly a process which has been going on for many years. Gerry Adams, in particular, outlined his policies and his philosophies as far back as ten years ago. He, in many ways, initiated the process and brought his party around to the ultimate ceasefire. John Hume also played a major role of course. Martin Mansergh and all his contacts, he was one of the driving forces behind the peace process. Fr. Reid was another central figure. When history is written, I believe that my father’s role will be seen to have been significant.

Would you share Peter Brooke’s recent assessment of Gerry Adams as “a very brave man”?

Yes. He is certainly brave. He has a brilliant mind, he is a sincere republican and I would be an admirer of his generally. I think all of that was reflected in the famous Late Late Show where Gay Byrne misread the general public mood, because we now have peace and that’s the ultimate prize, and we have to recognise Gerry Adams’ role in that.

Do you think that that particular Late Late Show backfired on Gay Byrne?

Yeah. It was fascinating viewing, compulsive viewing. I was delighted I was in that night to watch it. I’d have to say, showing my conservative views again perhaps, that I’m a fan of Gay Byrne’s and I don’t think there’s anybody to match him. But I think he handled that particular show badly, yes. He probably wasn’t able to fully understand the complexities of the situation. And, in a little tangent, I’d also like to say that Pat Kenny was probably the right person to interview Charles Haughey as he did on Kenny Live recently, rather than Gay Byrne.

Why?

Gay Byrne can have definite views on things, particularly when it comes to Northern Ireland. He carries a lot of baggage. Whereas Pat Kenny – a young man, new ideas, no baggage as regards Charles Haughey – he was the right man for that job.

I assume Charlie was very pleased with himself after his performance on Kenny Live?

Yeah, he was. He got a tremendous reaction to it from all over the country, letters and phonecalls and all that. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought he was very funny and witty. I loved how he made no comment about current political affairs in Fianna Fáil and yet managed very subtly to say an awful lot. That was a tremendous skill.

You were Lord Mayor of Dublin in 1989. It must have been a terrible comedown to have to move into the Mansion House after growing up in Kinsealy?

No, that issue didn’t arise. I was reared in a quiet part of Dublin.

And in rather opulent surroundings.

Not necessarily. We certainly didn’t have an opulent upbringing anyway. My mother gave me a very normal upbringing. We didn’t have any pretences about us. We wouldn’t be allowed have that. The thing I found hardest to get used to in the Mansion House was the noise of the traffic and the traffic jams and the buses and that kind of thing. They kept me awake at night but, I suppose, that’s part of city life.

But isn’t it true to say that given the amount of wealth and privilege in your background, you are singularly unsuited to the job of making decisions about the lives of ordinary people?

I would reject that totally. Our family subscribes to the Fianna Fáil philosophy – a republican party, the caring social philosophy important to us at the centre of Irish political life. As a family, we practised what we preached. My father came from humble origins but was very proud of his roots in Donnycarney. He certainly instilled that into us. I’ve never subscribed to the notion of class. My mother in particular gave us a very normal upbringing. We didn’t go to posh schools. Our friends were normal people. Most of my friends were made through the Fianna Fáil party and that takes in all types of people. The fact that my father is alleged to be rich, and probably is rich, time will tell, had no influence on me.

You don’t know whether or not he is rich?

No, I don’t. He’s certainly not as rich as some people think he is. My commitment to public service is total. I’ve been a full-time public representative since 1985. Helping people with their everyday problems is part and parcel of my life.

Your older siblings led very active social lives when they were younger, did you?

I was slightly different to my two brothers and sister. They were all more social than I was. I was born to be a worker. I always considered myself as a worker. I gave my studies at Trinity College every diligence and I became involved in politics from an early age as well. That was always my total commitment so I missed out on the very active social life that they had.

Was it easy to get girls because you were a Haughey?

Pulling birds generally? I didn’t ever consider the Haughey name to be an advantage in that regard. When I was younger, I was more reserved, almost shy. That’s something which I’ve gotten over now.

Did you resent the fun your siblings were having while you were stuck in boring old cumann meetings?

No, I didn’t. I was totally committed to the work in hand. Obviously, we’re a close family and a lot of our socialising was done within the family structure as well. But I was put on this life to work and I’ve accepted that at this stage.

What’s your earliest memory of your father?

My father is very conscious of his family and very involved with his children and admires his children and so on. But the constraints of office did put limits on the amount of time he spent with his family. He was never involved in the rearing of his children as babies but that was the accepted thing among fathers at the time, that the women reared the children. I have no memory of him tending to us as a very young child. He took more of an interest in us as we reached 7, 8, 9, 10.

The perception is that, throughout the ’60s and ’70s particularly, Charlie Haughey surrounded himself with a very upwardly-mobile, hard-drinking elite who helped plot his ascension to power. Do you remember gatherings of these people out in Kinsealy when you were young?

When the first proper biography of C.J. Haughey comes out . . .

You don’t count the Bruce Arnold book as a “proper biography” then?

An objective biography? No. There hasn’t been an objective biography of C.J. Haughey from a historical perspective as yet. When there is, it will be shown that he had a very small, close, loyal circle of friends who have stood with him throughout his career. People like Des Traynor who died recently, Brian Dennis of HB Dennis Motors, Pat O’Connor, Dick Murnane who died recently as well. His friends were very close and very tight. The ’60s were the roaring ’60s alright. He and his friends would have done a lot of entertaining and had a lot of parties during those years. There was a lot of prosperity about and he would have reflected that. He still does entertain a lot but on a much smaller scale. So, yes, I do remember a lot of big parties, certainly during the ’60s.

Charlie was a big drinker in those days, wasn’t he?

Again, the ’60s and even the ’70s were the eras of the big lunches when people regularly went for long, langer-ry lunches. But those days are long gone. Society has changed. People are less tolerant of it now. Politics is much more competitive and the heavy drinkers are going to be left behind. My father would certainly never have succeeded if he had subscribed to that and drank as much as some might say he did. He kept a balance. He certainly valued his social life but it largely revolved around family, I’d have to say, and close friends.

There were reports that he began drinking heavily again during his final year or so as Taoiseach and immediately after he left office?

That’s a myth. It’s generally accepted that he has coped well with retirement. He trained himself intellectually to switch off. I would say that he’s enjoying life more and socialising more and probably drinking more as well now but I don’t think anybody begrudges him that.

Do you get fed up being constantly compared to your father?

No. It’s something that I’ve never had a hang-up about.

You have a rather low-key speaking style. Would you prefer to have inherited your father’s more imperial tones?

I have a quieter style generally, and that’s fine for me.

Your moustache has come in for a lot of stick. Would you ever consider shaving it off?

I intend to keep it for good. I have a harelip and a cleft palate as well and the moustache reflects that. I think it just generally suits me.

Did you ever attend the Bunny Carr school of communications?

We were sent there as members of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party. Different TDs and senators were sent out there for training. I think actually what they were doing was sending us out there for assessment, to see how we’d perform on TV programmes. I’m not a mad supporter of the Carr Communications school of politics. I think it leads to blandness and uniformity. If all the politicians are going to Carr Communications, they’re all going to start saying the same thing. I wouldn’t subscribe to the view of Padraig Flynn, for example, that you have to contact Carr Communications for every speech you make.

He could’ve done with a little help from them in Brussels a couple of weeks ago.

I have no doubt that he probably was in touch with Carr Communications that day too. I think that’s taking the thing too far, to be so dependent on a communications firm.

Did you take personal pleasure in Pee Flynn’s recent difficulties in the European Parliament?

Good question (smiles). To be honest with you, I felt he was hard done by. Obviously, I wouldn’t have had any great allegiance to Padraig Flynn in the past because of his role in the politics of Fianna Fáil. But I actually ended up having some sympathy for him. I felt he was set up and he was treated unfairly by some of the women MEPs.

Did it brighten up Charlie’s day?

He follows political developments certainly and, from time to time, he makes comments about things in the privacy of his own home, not for publication by me or anybody else (laughs).

Have you read any of Roddy Doyle’s books?

I have to say no, but I have read all the reviews and watched all the TV serials. Obviously, he’s an acknowledged writer and he’s reflecting scenes that he was brought up to witness and so on. The books are entertaining as books but I do think that he has a motivation of setting out to shock. I don’t think that’s a good thing. It doesn’t lead to the best art form in relation to literary endeavour. Many of his characters are caricatures, particularly in the Family series. I didn’t think it was a serious reflection of everyday life on Dublin’s northside. It’s art, it’s not the real situation on the ground.

Do you object to the use of strong language in his work?

No, but I think he throws in a lot of bad language to get noticed and to shock people. Bad language seems to be too much part and parcel of his art form.

Of course, Charlie Haughey was a dab hand at the old expletives. It’s not a trait you seem to have inherited.

I think that’s more legend really, his tendency to bad language. You see, I knew C.J. Haughey, the family man. I hear reports that he was very difficult to work for although highly respected by people who did work for him, civil servants in particular. At home though, he is a very soft figure, surprise, surprise. Bad language certainly wouldn’t be part of his vocabulary in the home.

How badly hurt was your mother by the various political and media attacks on Charlie over the years?

My mother is a very strong, tough woman. She doesn’t display emotion often. She certainly never displayed any hurt in front of us as children. She’s very good at hiding her emotions. She knew that he always had tremendous support in the country and that was never reflected in the media. Okay, Fianna Fáil lost elections under his leadership but he also had tremendous support and admiration. During the heaves and the media demonisation, my mother used to say, “Everybody hates Charlie Haughey except the people.”

Did your mother try to discourage you from entering politics?

She would have discouraged it, yeah. She has seen at first hand the hardship and the difficulties involved. She certainly would have hinted that it’s not a career she would recommend. If anything, that helped me because I became all the more determined to carve out a political career knowing the hardship and the difficulties involved and knowing that she generally wouldn’t have encouraged any of us to go into politics. It forced me to be absolutely confident that that was the career I wanted.

Given that any future administration in which Fianna Fáil will be involved is likely to be a coalition, which party is you personal preference as partner?

I would’ve been one of those who’d have said that the day of the overall majority is gone but now, under Bertie Ahern, I’m not so sure. There’s certainly a very positive mood in the parliamentary party under the new leadership. I now think that an overall majority is achievable again and that’s a change of heart on my behalf. A personal view on coalition? Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats certainly seem to be co-operating well in opposition so that would make them a natural choice at this stage. There is a backlash against the Labour party in Fianna Fáil arising out of recent events but all that could change.

It was the PDs who helped to finally finish off your old man, would that not cause you some personal problems with them?

No, that wouldn’t be a factor. There would be no personal hostility to the PDs at this stage on my account. In fact, I would regard myself as quite close personally to Mary Harney. We were both members of the Erskine Hamilton Childers Cumann in Trinity College. We have a good personal relationship.

Are you in favour of the film censor’s banning of Natural Born Killers?

I don’t know much about it now.

Are you in favour of the banning of films in general?

Eh, no. I’m not in favour of censorship generally. This film is banned completely, is it?

Yes.

I see, so obviously the censor couldn’t deal with it without eliminating it altogether. Generally, I’m not in favour of censorship as regards matters of sex and so on. I suppose there can be a case made against the censoring of violent films. The whole debate now about video nasties and that has concentrated the public mind. Organisations like the Irish Film Institute have special viewings and that, don’t they? Perhaps, it could be allowed to be shown at film clubs and that sort of thing. That might be a better way to do it.

Have you seen any of Quentin Tarantino’s films?

No. I attend cinema with my wife and she’s very insistent on what type of films she likes. So, unfortunately, if there’s any violence or whatever, I don’t get to see films like that. I’ve missed a lot of films because of that. I wasn’t allowed to go to see In The Name Of The Father which is a film I’d loved to have seen. I’ll just have to wait to get the video of a lot of these films.

In The Name Of The Father wasn’t a very violent film.

She heard it was distressing so that was that. I end up only going to films like Sleepless In Seattle and things like that, unfortunately.

You could always go to the cinema on your own, you know.

Yes, I may have to start doing that.

Playboy magazine is still banned in this country, are you happy with that situation?

(Long pause) Whether I’m happy or unhappy with it, the age of censorship is probably gone. The state can’t tell people what they can and can’t read. People may have their own rights and entitlements. There is concern though for young people who may be disturbed and wouldn’t fully understand some magazines. I suppose Playboy wouldn’t be the worst of them.

So, do you think magazines like Playboy should be unbanned?

To be honest with you, I didn’t realise it was banned. Playboy is banned here, yeah? It’s not for me to say whether it’s going to be banned or unbanned. (Very long pause) There’s a long pause here, sorry about that. (Another pause) I’m not necessarily going to be at the forefront of calling for it to be unbanned, I’ll put it that way. Is it a distortion of your position to say that you felt the ‘liberal agenda’ was carried too far by the last Fianna Fáil/Labour coalition?

The subtlety of my position may have got lost in the overall debate. My view is that there wasn’t adequate debate on the issues, particularly in the Dáil and Seanad. These things were seen to be rushed through the Dáil, steamrolled in fact, in particular by the Labour Party without all shades of opinion being taken into account. People in my own constituency, for example, were flabbergasted that there wasn’t a vote in the Dáil on the decriminalisation of homosexuality. People knew that there are deputies in here who must have had concerns about this move. I felt there should’ve been more persuasion of the public to bring people around to what was being done.

Would you have been a persuader, one of those endeavouring to bring the public around to the decriminalisation of homosexuality or were you against that move?

That’s history. I don’t believe you can turn back the clock so the issue is closed. (Pause) I have no intention of imposing my views on anybody and people have rights to their own opinions. Certainly, the representations that I received in my constituency were opposed to the decriminalisation of homosexuality.

Overwhelmingly opposed?

Yes. And I would have articulated that. Having said that, I fully respect the rights of those people to put forward an opposite view.

But what’s your own view?

Again, my own personal view is that the clock cannot be turned back. It would send out all the wrong signals if we were to repeal the legislation.

Should the decriminalisation legislation have been introduced in the first place then?

We were under pressure from the Court of Human rights to amend the legislation.

You don’t seem to be too happy about it though.

Because I am anxious to reflect the views of my own constituents. What I wanted to do at the time was try and introduce a balance into the debate. For that reason, I aligned myself with those who were putting forward the view that it should not be decriminalised.

Fairview Park, which is in your constituency, is a known cruising ground for gay people. How do you feel about that?

As of now, there’s nobody breaking any law, presumably. I don’t know that they’re even breaking any bye-laws. There are bye-laws against drinking in parks but that’s about it. So, no, I wouldn’t be opposed because people have individual freedoms. Having said that, to bring on the debate a little bit, rampant individualism without any concept of the public good has its disadvantages.

When a man was battered to death in Fairview Park in 1982 by a gang of queer-bashers, a group of gay men, lesbians and other activists staged a march around the park as an act of defiance against those who would attack them. Would it have ever crossed your mind to show solidarity with those people by joining such a march?

No, because that’s not my kind of politics but nobody has a right to murder anybody. And I would oppose absolutely the taking of somebody’s life for whatever reason, the same way as I would oppose somebody trying to shoot a journalist as happened recently. But taking to he streets is not my form of politics.

In the interests of fostering debate, do you believe that Fianna Fáil should oppose the forthcoming divorce referendum?

Good question. Fianna Fáil are on record as supporting the divorce referendum. That would mean that every party in Dáil Eireann would be supporting the divorce referendum. And yet, that will probably not reflect the position out on the ground. Presumably, there will be somewhere between 30% and 50% of the people, time will tell, opposed to amending the ban. I believe that Fianna Fáil TDs should have the freedom to get involved in the campaign or not to get involved in the campaign. If there are Fianna Fáil deputies who are opposed to divorce, they shouldn’t be asked to campaign for it.

Should they be allowed campaign against it?

Eh, yes. Sorry, um, the party is obviously supporting it. But if there are members of Fianna Fáil who are vehemently opposed to divorce they should be allowed to campaign against it, yeah.

Will Bertie Ahern’s marital status affect Fianna Fáil’s approach to the divorce referendum?

I don’t think it’s an issue. Presumably, he himself would favour divorce but I also think that he wouldn’t let his own personal situation dictate what the party policy will eventually be. He will reflect the views of the broader party whatever they may be when the time comes to make that decision.

Are you opposed to divorce?

I’m in favour of the referendum taking place. Again, I don’t want to be evasive but I’d like to see the type of divorce legislation that’s being proposed first. I would be obviously opposed to quickie divorce. My main concern would be for children of broken marriages. In the past, my instincts were against divorce but I want to reflect the views of my own constituency. So, I’ll have to await my own final view on it until I see the legislation.

You talk a lot about the views of your constituents. Do you not think there’s a place for leadership among politicians?

I’m a believer in representative democracy. I’m here to represent the people who elected me.

But don’t you use all this stuff about ‘the need for debate’ as a way of wriggling off the hook and excusing yourself from giving an opinion of your own?

No, I don’t but, first and foremost, I’d have to consult my electorate as best I can. There are other interest groups putting forward other views. I see my role as a representative of the views of my people, my constituents.

All these years on, do you believe that the abortion amendment was a mistake?

No. I supported the campaign at the time. It was a very well-intentioned move and certainly had the support of the people. The Supreme Court decision in relation to the X Case was very unusual. To interpret the people’s amendment to the constitution in a way that means we now have the most liberal abortion in Europe, I find it difficult to comprehend how the Supreme Court came to that decision. My criticism would be of the Supreme Court decision.

Are you opposed to abortion in all circumstances?

It’s not a view that I’ve come to lightly. It’s something that I’ve considered very deeply. As somebody with a young wife who, presumably, will have more children, I would be very conscious of the right to life of a mother. If I thought that a total ban on abortion would mean that a mother’s life would be put at risk, I wouldn’t go along with it. But, having consulted with the medical council and elsewhere, I’m satisfied that normal medical practise is that a mother will be saved in the unusual circumstance that a choice has to be made. For that reason, I’ve decided that I’m opposed to abortion in all circumstances.

Do you support the Minister for Education’s introduction of sex education classes in both primary and post primary schools?

I do believe that there’s a need for some form of sex education in the modern Ireland. I learned the facts of life in the schoolyard and it wasn’t a complete education by any means, so that’s unsatisfactory. But the actual format has to be open to debate. Parents who have fundamental objections to it should have the choice of taking their children out of such classes.

What was Charlie like when it came to sitting you down to tell you about the birds and the bees?

My parents played no role in that whatsoever. I think that generation of parents didn’t broach the subject of the facts of life with their children and that was just the conventional thinking of the time. My parents didn’t give me any instruction whatsoever on the facts of life.

Do you believe that the Irish media is still hostile to Fianna Fáil?

Bertie Ahern seems to be liked by everyone. Nobody dislikes Bertie Ahern and that’s going to be reflected in the media so that situation should change also.

How do you feel about the dominant role of Tony O’Reilly in the Irish newspaper business?

I would have concern about that. It’s unhealthy for democracy. There’s lots of speculation about Tony O’Reilly’s political allegiances. If it were a question that his personal opinions, whatever they are, were going to dominate the Irish media then that would be undesirable for democracy generally. It’s something that government will have to address, the fact that the media is falling into the hands of one particular person.

Would you see a newspaper like the Sunday Independent as irredeemably hostile to Fianna Fáil?

Yes. The Sunday Independent generally represents an ethos which is very consistent, I’ll say that for it. It’s certainly anti-republican, anti-nationalist. They crucified John Hume for being involved in talks with Gerry Adams. There was one issue which from start to finish had all the feature writers crucifying John Hume. That definitely showed a bias as regards general republican, nationalist issues. The Sunday Independent is a good case in point of what might happen if that philosophy were to pervade all organs of the media.

Do you not enjoy Conor Cruise O’Brien’s column?

I don’t read him any more. It’s so predictable, it’s a waste of time to read it. He’s been saying the same thing now for years. He hasn’t any electoral mandate for his views. Years ago, he used to express his views about Charles Haughey and how he was going to be a danger to democracy. In the subsequent general election, Conor Cruise O’Brien lost his seat. I don’t take Conor Cruise O’Brien seriously.

Do you read the Terry Keane column?

It’s gossipy, yes. I think everybody reads the Terry Keane column because it’s certainly very accessible, at the back of the Independent. But general, social activities of Dublin and who’s doing what, that’s not a major interest to a politician. The sections of the paper dealing with more sound political issues of concern to my own constituents are of more concern to me.

Terry Keane regularly claims to have an inside track on gossip coming directly from Charles Haughey himself, doesn’t she?

I know nothing about that. I think she claims to have an inside track with many people. Anything she writes is for entertainment and probably should be taken with a grain of salt.

What do you think of Dermot Morgan and his brand of satire?

I think he goes too far. I thought the “Longford knacker” joke was in bad taste. It was just kicking a man when he’s down. I don’t take him too seriously. What he does is a form of entertainment, it’s art. He sets out to shock people and it seems to be something that has benefited his career but it’s not something I get too hung-up about.

What did you make of the Charlie and Teasy sketches on Scrap Saturday?

I never actually heard them. I didn’t listen to the programme that much even though I know it was popular. He made references to me once or twice that I thought went a little too far. He did a skit on my wedding which was on the 8th of February, 1991. I was on my honeymoon when it went out. It was in bad taste. He did a sort of re-enactment of it on the programme. Now, that was a very special family moment and I thought that was going a bit too far. But it’s not going to upset me.

What sort of music do you listen to?

I was reared on the Irish folk revival, The Chieftains and Planxty. I’m into easy listening generally because of the career that I’m in. I like to sit back and relax with some Christy Hennessy, Christy Moore, Mary Black. If I was feeling a bit wilder than that, U2, some of their stuff I like, and Dire Straits.

What Ministerial post do you most want to occupy during your career?

In the long term, Finance. That’s where the real power lies. But to be more pragmatic, in the short term I would be very interested in Environment or, even from a junior ministry point of view, the Department of Environmental Protection. I’d like to get stuck into that.

Do you have leadership ambitions?

That is something that I’d have to give serious consideration to. Am I in politics to scramble up to the very top? That takes very, very strong qualities, a firm belief in yourself, confidence, sacrifice and so on. I have a young family and I’m very conscious of their needs. I have a lot to learn yet. Certainly, it’s not on my agenda in the short term but it is something that I will give consideration to in due course.

Do you suspect that you have what it takes?

I believe that I’m totally committed to politics and to public service. I understand the mechanisms involved. That’s certainly an advantage in a political career.

Was Charlie’s greatest mistake the people he surrounded himself with, the likes of Pee Flynn, Seán Doherty, Albert Reynolds?

They could’ve been perceived as mistakes but I would turn it around and say that one of Charles Haughey’s best qualities was his loyalty. He was terribly loyal to his friends and supporters, particularly when they were under pressure. It may have been his undoing but loyalty is a great quality to have as a human being.

In Charlie’s celebrated interview with Hot Press some years ago, he said that “there are some fuckers whose throats you’d like to cut, and push them over a fucking cliff.” Can you tell us who, specifically, these fuckers are?

(Pause) Eh, (laughs) (another pause), he’s never said publicly who they are himself so it may not be for me to say. Presumably, Conor Cruise O’Brien would’ve been one and yet he’s probably not worth bothering about either. He’s not worth throwing over a cliff. There would’ve been a few journalists among the list, certainly. Charles Haughey has had his political opponents over the years so you can fill in the other names yourself. I wouldn’t like to speculate. I would suggest that Hot Press should have a competition, with hindsight who do your readers think he was referring to? That might be the best way out of it.