Neasa Hourigan clearly wears her heart on her sleeve. The controversial Green Party TD for Dublin Central, has been banished from the parliamentary party not once but three times within the lifetime of the current coalition government!

In 2020, Neasa voted twice against her own government’s amendments to the Residential Tenancies Bill, before resigning as party whip in protest. Next, in 2022 the Green Party expelled her for six months, when – as a mother of three young children – she rejected the coalition’s decision to move the National Maternity Hospital to co-locate with St. Vincent’s Hospital.

Most recently, Neasa was expelled for a further 15-months and removed from her role as Chair of the Oireachtas budgetary committee, when she again voted against a government motion on the eviction ban.

Clearly, Neasa is a woman of great principle. But this interview confirms she is much more than that, offering powerful insights into a rebellious, challenging view of life.

From a political family in Co. Limerick, she graduated with a BA in Architecture from TU Dublin and an MA from UCD. …

Neasa Hourigan. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

Jason O’Toole: What were you like growing up?
Neasa Hourigan: I’m the middle child of seven children. The middle child can be fighting for their voice to be heard a little bit – and also be fighting in general [laughs]. My family are very smart, very politically engaged – and so you really have to make your voice heard.

Were you a bit of a rebel at university?
I failed first year, actually! I might’ve been having too much fun. And architecture is quite a long course; the basic course is five years. I don’t know if I was a rebel, but I wasn’t involved in student politics. I was busy doing other things, shall we say.

It sounds like you were partying too hard.
Yeah, effectively. I had fun and wouldn’t be worrying too much about it. But I don’t think people of that age were as politically engaged as they are now. In the late-’90s, the world was relatively peaceful compared to now. So, the climate crisis aside, it was easy to be distracted by other things! [laughs.]

Would you have been part of the ecstasy generation?
It was certainly on the up at the time. Yeah, 100 per cent. It was that era when everybody was doing it. I did a year in Sweden, in my fourth year, and when I came back, all my friends were entrenched in that scene. I came into it late and I was like, ‘Oh God, this is like a thing now’.

What was the experience of dropping E like for you?
Fine. It didn’t change my life or anything. I wasn’t going looking for it every weekend. It wasn’t a big thing for me, honestly. I’ve tried lots of different things.

Did you try cocaine?
[Nervous laughter] When I lived in New Jersey, I did try it. I’ll tell you: I tried it twice and I liked it so much I didn’t try it again. And that’s a scary thing. I didn’t like myself on it. It was like a hyper-version of myself. It gave me a fright. So, I just never did it again.

In 2011, Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan, then the Lord Mayor of Roscommon town, was the first Irish politician to ever publicly admit in an interview with Hot Press to trying cocaine. Only Stephen Donnelly has gone close since...
There’s 160 TDs, plus Senators. Are we really saying that 160 people who have lived a life have not done multiple types of drugs? Like, that’s utterly unbelievable. It’s ridiculous lying when they say they haven’t done it [laughs].

And have you ever tried heroin?
Oh God, no. Jeekers! I would be too scared to do that.

Did you enjoy smoking marijuana?
As it happens, marijuana makes me feel sick!

But do you think marijuana should be legalised?
Personally, I would like to see full legalisation. One of the reasons I’m so keen on it is because of the increase in potency that I’ve seen. Like, when I was a kid in Limerick it was all soapy hash and not good quality. And then you go to America and you’d see this incredibly lush green plant that people were smoking.

You mentioned potency...
The potency has definitely changed in the last while. And people use that as an excuse not to decrim’. Whereas I believe that’s the reason you should decrim’ – because a completely unregulated, unchecked industry is increasing potency. So people don’t know what they’re getting. When you look at most regular cannabis users, sometimes they’re self-medicating, or sometimes they’re smoking just because they like it. But they’re getting a completely unregulated product, which varies wildly in potency – and that, to me, is scary. It worries me. And I think it really affects people.

Do you think harder drugs should be decriminalised?
I’ve done a lot of work on decrim’ – and I would like to see every single illegal drug decrim’, including heroin and cocaine – everything. I don’t think you should criminalise somebody who is taking a drug. If you want to criminalise people who are trading illegal drugs, fine. When it comes to marijuana though, I think we have such a high percentage of people who are safely using it, that we should just legislate for it.

What about people growing their own marijuana plants?
I’d like to see something like Spain where you can either grow your own plants, or you can give, say, four plants to a local club and they grow them for you. That would be really good for people who are, for example, managing pain at a low level. They can choose a strain that works well for them. I am very clear though: I would not like to see it become big business. In the same way that I don’t like vaping as a big business, I don’t like to see anybody’s intake of drugs of any kind being big business. I don’t think we should be profiteering off anyone.

Should what people used to call ‘prostitution’ be legalised too? The argument being that consenting adults should be allowed to do what they want in the privacy of their own room.
Absolutely. Adults should be able to do what adults do. What really annoys me is that, in this country, we confuse sex trafficking with sex work. Actually, we are one of the worst EU countries for prosecuting people for people trafficking. And yet we criminalise sex workers on the basis of trafficking! Where it’s two consenting adults, their human rights should be respected. Their own choices should be respected. They’re not hurting anybody.

Neasa Hourigan. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

It must be hard to juggle a career in politics and motherhood.
It is. I’m always tired. I tend to feel that I’m not quite doing a good enough job in either politics or parenting. My kids eat a lot of frozen pizza, unfortunately.

It sounds like you feel guilty.
Yeah, always. I have three small children – aged six, nine and eleven. My oldest child has quite a lot of serious disabilities, so I’m always juggling and running from one thing to the next. I’m trying to make it work and not always successfully. And sometimes I think it’s the wrong thing to do.

Is that the result of a failure of the system.
Yes. It doesn’t work. It’s not like I want extra special support. I just want a system where I don’t have to be here, in Dáil Éireann, at 10 o’clock on a Wednesday night voting.

Can that be changed?
If people like me don’t at least try, then the system won’t ever change. You have to say, ‘Well, I can’t go to that meeting’. And don’t apologise for it. In my thirties, I would apologise if I couldn’t go to a meeting. And now the first thing I do is to say, ‘Ooh, I’m sorry, I can’t do that because of childcare’. And I just leave it at that.

Your eldest child is hard of hearing and registered as blind. I can’t even begin to imagine how awful that experience must have been for you.
When she was born, she wasn’t making eye contact and she had a nystagmus, which was flickering eyes. So really early on, we knew something was wrong. But at the beginning, they don’t know what the problem is or how significant it might be. So, we were doing CT scans and trying to keep a baby still during really invasive tests. It was a very difficult year of testing, diagnosis, and wondering was this, like, a significant brain injury? She has retinal dystrophy, which is not treatable. And she is a braille user and a cane user.

How is she doing now?
I’m really mindful that this is her story, not my story – so I check with her regularly to see if she minds sharing this. I’m just a bystander. I’m a facilitator in her life, not the main part of it. But she’s fantastic. She would buy you and sell you. She is a tough woman. She does a lot of work for Vision Ireland, formerly the NCBI. And she’s her own little activist these days. She’s amazing.

Did you ever suffer from post-natal depression?
I gave up work because her needs in terms of treatment and diagnosis were so significant that I couldn’t juggle work anymore. And I became a full-time carer. So, it wasn’t post-natal depression. But certainly being a stay-at-home carer for a disabled child, even in the middle of a big city, is like the most isolating thing in the world. And that was certainly a depressing time and put lots of pressure on us. A) you have no money; B) you’re suddenly stuck in a house all the time, having been out and about as a fully-fledged person. And that’s really difficult. So, I had carer’s depression or carer’s issues.

Did you have to take antidepressants?
There was a time when I took some anti-anxiety medication, which I don’t take anymore.

Post-natal depression affects between 10% and 15% of women in Ireland, and probably more who are not diagnosed. Why is there not more acknowledgement of the reality of it?
Because it’s women who experience it. A lot of issues to do with reproductive health are not taken that seriously. We have to take women more seriously when they express that they’re not feeling well. This is even an issue in cardiovascular health. Women will say, ‘I don’t feel well’, and it’s actually a heart attack, for example, and it gets missed. So, I think women not being taken seriously by healthcare providers is an ongoing issue.

But post-natal depression can inflict horror on men and children as well.
It sure can, yeah. I think depression in general, like lots of mental health issues, including addiction or eating disorders, doesn’t just affect the person: it has this massive effect on the family. That’s really difficult.

There seems to be a growing sense that there is a religious dimension to the way the Green Party imposes its view of the world on people – that if you don’t agree you’re a sinner!
That’s something that gets reflected back to me. I asked a very well-known broadcaster a couple of months ago where he went on holiday and he said, ‘Oh, I don’t want to tell you because I flew there’. I didn’t say it to him, but it made me sad that he thought I would judge him. I’m very unjudge-y. I drive. Not very often, but I drive. I used to be a vegetarian. I don’t do that anymore. I just try not to eat too much meat. I think there’s a whole thing about like, you know, purity culture. You see it in politics generally: ‘You’re not ideologically pure enough on this issue or that issue’. I’m not a fan of that.

What’d be your approach?
People are human and you have to encourage them to do their best, but in a non-judge-y way. And that really stood out for me with that broadcaster saying to me that he wouldn’t tell me where he’d been. It’s like, ‘Oh, my God, how judge-y do you think Greens are that you can’t even tell me you went to Spain? I’m happy for you that you went to Spain’, you know? So I think that that’s a major issue. Again, you’re not going to get to 30 per cent in the polls by judging people negatively. You know, you’re going to have to start communicating that ‘We’re all in this together. I’m not judging you’.

The Green Party is on four per cent – the reality is that you could get decimated in the next General Election, as happened to Labour the last time they were in government.
That is always a fear. I’m very mindful that we could be decimated – it’s always a danger when you go into Government as a minority party. You should be in the long game, to provide your contribution as long as possible. But the threat of decimation is not a good reason not to go into government. You should be aiming to go into government – and do it well enough that you don’t get decimated.

Would you like to be a party leader someday?
Honestly, that’s not really a focus for me. But I’m very interested in the organisation of parties. You can be very critical of Sinn Féin, but look how far they’ve come in such a short space of time. In politics, you’re trying to convince the most amount of people to agree with you. And I really do think that there is a way to organise this party and to develop policies that are meaningful to the public, to allow Green politics to be 30 per cent of the vote share. That’s interesting to me. And you could do that as leader, deputy leader, chair. You know, the climate crisis isn’t going away, so we should be aiming for 30/35/40 per cent. That’s my interest. The leader thing is not a focus.

But would you be willing to put your name into the hat in the future, when a leadership contest does happen?
If I thought it would achieve 30 per cent of the vote share, I’d be willing to do that and more.

Would you go into coalition with Sinn Féin?
I would, yes. I would go into coalition with anyone who would take the climate crisis seriously. Sinn Féin don’t right now, but we might be able to convince them.

Would you trust them, for example, with having the Minister for Justice or the Foreign Affairs portfolios?
Look, I think if you’re negotiating a programme for government, you’re not just negotiating policy, you’re also negotiating the cabinet, you’re also negotiating lines of communication and operational issues. So, once you go into negotiation, all of that is on the table. If people are democratically elected, you have to accept what the populace returns. If they return a huge vote of confidence in Sinn Féin, then we have to take that seriously.

But what about the party’s past direct association with the brutal murderous campaign carried out by the Provisional IRA?
I can totally see people’s concern over that. I respect anybody who says, ‘I just can’t vote for that’. My more pressing concern right now would be the structure of decision-making in the party. So if I was going into a negotiation with them, for example, I would be putting on the table that, ‘I don’t understand what role, let’s say, advisors play in your party and the role of the Comhairle, the council. I would like to understand what role they’ll play when I make a deal’. Who’s signing off on that agreement once you leave the room? And what part do they play in this? I think those are the questions that we should be asking now.

What do you make of Mary Lou McDonald who runs in the same constituency as you?
We don’t share the same politics, but I have no problem with Mary Lou. For the record, I have no problem with any of my constituency colleagues.

What about Mary Lou threatening to sue Shane Ross because he had raised questions about her so-called “big house” in his book?
In general, Sinn Féin are very quick to threaten legal action. There’s a number of cases of members of Sinn Féin suing the media. I don’t think that that’s a good precedent to set. There is a perception that Sinn Féin have an unlimited amount of funds for this kind of thing. And that is difficult for the media. Because often with legal action, you don’t have to win to accomplish what you want to accomplish – which is to silence people.

There’s been criticism of Catherine Martin’s handling of the RTÉ crisis, particularly the “resignation” of the former RTÉ chair Siún Ní Raghallaigh. Was it a mistake to go on Prime Time?
I wouldn’t have gone on Prime Time. But just because I’m probably less polite than Catherine! I probably would have just cancelled Prime Time. But, ultimately, what it comes down to is this – the point of the role of chair of RTÉ is to be a conduit to the Minister. If the relationship breaks down, and the communication is not there with the Minister, that’s the end of the role. The fundamental issue is that the relationship broke down. And to me, that’s the end of the role for Ms Ní Raghallaigh, who, by all accounts, is a brilliant person and a very effective person.

I was wondering, are you happy with what’s being done in your name as a Green Party TD?
That, I suppose, is a tricky question for me. Obviously I’m on the outside of the parliamentary party at the moment, because I didn’t agree with the lifting of the eviction ban and that goes to the heart of why I was sceptical about going into this government in general. I agreed with a lot of what the Greens wanted to achieve, but I didn’t feel that the Programme for Government was strong enough on housing. On the other hand, the Climate Action Bill is massive. So on climate issues, I’m actually very proud of what we’ve achieved.

What would you do differently in relation to the housing crisis?
I am a TD for Dublin Central – and Dublin Central pulls an outsized amount of weight in terms of the provision, both of emergency accommodation for people experiencing homelessness and in terms of providing spaces for people seeking international protection. There’s some streets where there are over a thousand units of emergency accommodation – and no street will not be changed by that hugely. I would be quite critical of the unwillingness of other areas to do their fair share. The answer to that is to insist that every local authority puts in place supports and services, so that every county is doing a little bit, so that there isn’t so much pressure on areas like mine. We need a joined-up plan.

Is the Green Party right for you?
I’m a policy person. And for me, there’s no other version of politics that makes sense. The vagaries of a particular government come and go. But for me, the future of politics is framed by diminishing access to resources and the climate crisis. For me, there’s no other version of politics that makes sense. So I’m happy in terms of where my political home is.

Even though you’re seen as a thorn in the side of the leadership…
There’s no personal beef between me and my colleagues – it’s all kind of a different view around how you should do government. But right now, I think things are good. When I voted against the Programme for Government, it wasn’t like a 100 per cent rejection of everything in it. It just wasn’t good enough for me on housing. And I still stand by that. I also have no regrets about my ejection from the parliamentary party. I think it was really important to say, ‘This does not align with our policies’. It’s useful as well to be a critical voice in an organisation that doesn’t always find that easy.

Eamon Ryan. Copyright Miguel Ruiz.

Eamon Ryan recently introduced a scheme of so-called deposits and returns on plastic bottles. It turns out that Tesco’s machines for plastic bottles only give vouchers, not the money that people have paid, which forces them to shop at Tesco. Is that acceptable?
I’m not a fan of the voucher. You should get cash in hand. We have to be really careful to hold on to a cash-based society in general and achieving that for the bottle return is part of that discussion. I would be very critical of Tesco’s vouchers. And I would have other issues.

Like what?
Before it was even launched, I was asking questions around accessibility. I am a carer of a child with a disability and I’m always questioning: does this have audio commands? Is it easily interpreted? Is it legible as a system to use? Are the barcodes large enough for visually impaired people? Is it accessible to somebody in a wheelchair? Some of the machines are at a height that would be quite difficult if you were in a wheelchair.

A quick switch: should Dublin Port be moved, for example, north to Balbriggan to create room for more housing close to the city centre?
I think there’s a really good argument to be made for that. I look at the land that Dublin Port sits on and think, ‘Huh, that would be an incredible amount of land to develop for housing’. Honestly, I’m not a huge fan of the plans that Dublin Port have for the port going forward. I think it will end up with a huge amount of haulage going very close to a city that’s already dealing with a vast amount of pollution. So, if we could find a location where you would have a train line going straight to the port and you could put some of the necessary traffic for a port through that – that would be a huge win. I would like that land for housing.

What’s the Green Party’s position on Gaza?
There should be an immediate ceasefire. There is a genocide happening and it is an absolute affront, that we would stand by and watch that happen. I think the Irish government in general has been quite good internationally, in terms of leading on a perspective that is rooted in human rights.

What would you say to the accusation – which the Israeli government and diplomats level at people – that calling it genocide makes you anti-Semitic?
If you’re rooted in human rights and if you are looking at it in terms of the impact on the civilian population, you can confidently disregard that position. I think Ireland is strongly and identifiably not anti-Semitic here. As a neutral country, we have a totally valid position to take that is about human rights, about concern around children and adults who are being indiscriminately murdered. The more we engage with that anti-Semitic trope coming from a country that is trying to defend the genocide, the more oxygen we’re giving it.

What about the argument that Ireland is dependent on the US and the EU for protection and that neutrality is therefore a fig leaf that makes no sense?
First of all, there’s nothing to stop Ireland from heavily investing in the defence forces and our navy, for example. I would be very in favour of that. And increasingly, as we invest in, let’s say, energy infrastructure, which is domestic – like offshore wind, for example – we should take the protection of our own marine areas much more seriously. That’s not to say that there is anything we as a small country can do to protect ourselves, for example, from a nuclear strike. But the role of a neutral country is more important now than ever in an increasingly volatile political situation.

Tánaiste Micheál Martin has said legislation to get rid of Ireland’s triple lock mechanism governing military deployment overseas is being drawn up “without delay.”
I’d be very critical of Micheál Martin’s current bent in terms of watering down Ireland’s neutrality. He’s probably going to have a go at the triple lock before the end of this government, which would be regrettable. I think there is a really important role on the global stage for neutral countries. We are by far in a better position, for example, to speak for Gaza and for Palestinians, because we are a neutral country and not a member of Nato. The same with Ukraine.

There’s a sense now in which Putin has the upper hand. Is that something we’re going to have to just live with?
It was an invasion that was ill-advised and has led to a devastating human cost. Ultimately, all war ends in talks. Do I think that he will probably consolidate some amount of territory? Possibly. And that would be a very bitter pill.

What do you make of Greta Thunberg?
You have to think of it in the context that she started her movement when she was a neurodivergent child who was like, ‘I’m not having this. The adults have to answer for themselves’. And that’s fantastic. She’s incredibly articulate and she’s a brilliant person. But I’m not sure it would have been much fun to be her. And I’m not sure it was fair for both the media and the Green movement to put so much emphasis on her and her movement.

Greta Thunberg

What type of music are you into?
Myself and my husband met through collecting records. The last concert we went to was PJ Harvey. We are steeped in that ‘90s/noughties stuff. I think the first gig we went to together was Suede. We listen to a lot of jazz – the record I had on last night was Sons Of Kemet. They’re incredible. But yeah, we buy all the time. I have to say in the late ‘90s and noughties, like, nobody was buying vinyl. So, it’s kind of weird now that it’s everywhere and everybody releases on vinyl, which is fantastic. But also, it’s like tripled in price which is not great.

First pressings from that era are fetching good prices on Discogs.com.
It’s crazy. I know they’ve reissued the Richard Hawley stuff, but I looked that up before they started to reissue it and it was, like, just major money. And you think, ‘Well, it’s only kind of the really early jazz or even Krautrock that goes for that kind of money’. But no. Weirdly, all the stuff that we bought in the ‘90s and noughties, like the Richard Hawleys, are super sought-after now, which makes me laugh. Because at the time people thought, ‘Why are you buying this on vinyl?’