To most people who listen to radio, the JNLR figures are about as relevant as the price of rice in Pakistan. However, to those who work in commercial radio these audience statistics are the commercial lifeblood of a station, the equivalent of the charts to a rock star.

Put simply, the more people who listen to a radio station the higher the advertising rates that can be charged by its sales department. In Dublin, specifically, four stations continually fight this battle for listeners, status and cash: FM104, 98FM, Today FM and 2FM. All these stations are aimed primarily at the 15-34 year old age group. And every time the JNLR figures are published, each station puts its own particular spin on the results, claiming some form of victory over its nearest rivals.
Last week, for example, the JNLR figures for weekdays, January-July 2000 were published and Dermot Hanrahan, Chief Executive of FM104 sent out a Press Release with the heading "FM104 is still Dublin's Top Dog No 1 Again!"
Cute, but is the latter line truth or, itself, simply hype? Either way there is no denying that Dermot Hanrahan himself is the quintessential beneficiary of the Celtic Tiger economy, a man who has turned the fortunes of FM104 around from close to insolvency at the start of the 90s to its current position as one of the most successful commercial radio stations in Ireland. He is also a straight-talker who takes no prisoners when it comes to discussing his station, its rivals and the current state of radio in Ireland in general.

Joe Jackson: Give me a biographical context for your involvement in broadcasting. Have you been a radio buff since childhood?
Dermot Hanrahan: Not at all. I found my way into radio by accident. In late 1991, Mike Hogan, the founder and original chief executive of the radio station, resigned. Then, a couple of the shareholders asked me if I'd mind the shop for a few weeks! I'd never been inside a radio station before walking in as Managing Director.
One of the most terrifying things I had to do was be introduced to the assembled staff and try to assure them this wasn't an act of total lunacy on behalf of the board. And I remember I had to write on a piece of paper beforehand the letters JNLR because I'd never heard of the JNLR and I wanted to make sure I got those letters in the right order!
Your background was in music retailing, with Virgin.
Actually, I'd left Virgin to become manager of Blockbuster Video and it had shareholders in common with the newly re-launched Rock 104. And, despite what the hotpress Yearbook seems to suggest, that change was not my idea. Nor was it my "failure."
There may have been an element of panic, collectively, which led to the launch of Rock 104. But I understand why that decision was taken. The consultant who helped Denis O'Brien put together 98FM was an Australian called Peter Benson, so the board approached Benson on the basis that if he got it right in Dublin once he could get it right twice. It was his advice that, Dublin being a major rock capital, it was logical it should have a major rock station. He put together the package and Mike Hogan and the board bought that package.
Which did, nonetheless, turn out to be a miserable failure?
It was successful in terms of the number of listeners. The problem was that the listeners were all under 24 and tended to be C2DE.
Which is?
Downmarket. Low income. Young. In these surveys, socio-economic groups are rated by letters, 'A' being the rich, 'E' being pretty poor, probably unemployed and so on. And while it's nice to have C2DE - because you want all listeners - from an advertiser's perspective, it's the people with money to spend that you want. In a depressed economy back then, 98FM were seen as having ABC1's and we were seen as downmarket, not an attractive place to place your money. Rock 104 was intended to turn that around, add on a layer of slightly older adults, 24-35, but it didn't work.
Wasn't the station in deep financial trouble at the time?
We were insolvent, trading illegally, on the verge of collapse at the end of 1991. This was when Century was collapsing but, unbeknownst to the media, we were in as bad shape. Our ratings were in freefall. Even after the million pound relaunch of the station as Rock 104. Maria, our accountant, used to come into my office for a cry because we didn't want our staff to know how bad things were. She used to say things like 'Dermot, Christmas is three weeks away but we can't pay the Christmas salaries.' And we literally limped from day to day. I had to go to every creditor and do a deal with them. And then we put together a rescue plan which cost more than it took to set up the station on day one.
So we targeted the same audience 98FM had built up, pumped a fortune into highly aggressive marketing of our station and, fortunately, time has proven we were hugely successful in that respect. After eighteen months we'd broken even, within twelve months of that we were a very profitable station and within a couple of years we were the most profitable station in the State.
As soon as the station's fortunes changed Richard Branson tried to buy out FM104, didn't he?
Yes. But I told him the ownership rules of broadcasting in Ireland wouldn't allow that, but he could buy into it. Irish radio is based on diversity of ownership. No shareholder is allowed to buy more than 27% of a radio station, which I think is absolutely absurd. And probably challengable in European Law. Why should that rule apply to radio and not to newspapers or, say, hotpress? The reality is that this industry is funded purely by Irish risk capital. It's a success in spite of successive IRTCs and Government policy, not because of it.
But didn't they sanction the name and format change, which surely helped?
So what? Big deal! It's our company, not theirs! I don't see that we should be beholden to anybody for giving us the permission to change the name of our business! Or the format. Radio stations will stand, or fall, according to the response of the public. There is nothing more democratic than letting the public decide. Rather than this paternalistic approach that has been evident in Ireland.
Do you feel the same way about the Irish-music-stations-should-play-30%-Irish-music quota that was introduced by the IRTC?
Yes. I do believe that we operate in a country that has one of the healthiest music industries in the world. It doesn't need civil servants with stop watches to make it a success. And creating that hothouse environment actually dulls rather than sharpens the skills of band managers and people in the music industry, in terms of getting ready to crack the world market.
Irish music, once it gets outside Ireland, will have to compete with the best the world has to offer. It has been doing so admirably for the past 20 years.
On the other hand, hotpress did surveys at the time which suggested that the level of Irish music on the Dublin stations was as low as 3% or 5%.
Our argument is 'if it's good, we'll play it.' But being forced to play a particularly arbitrary quantity of music is absurd. What we said at the start of this whole 'Jobs In Music' campaign was that we would strive to play 20%. And that was easy to do with the universe of music that was available in Ireland at the time. The good stuff. What we want to play is the good stuff. Not 'Cripple Creek Productions.' We're not a charity. We're not here to give people breaks. If the music is qualitatively good, it deserves to be played, wherever it comes from.
Do you still strive to reach a 20% quota in terms of Irish music?
It varies. It depends on what is available in the market at any given time. I remember from my days in Virgin that approximately 8% of the releases that came into the shop were Irish, so trying to reach 20% Irish quotas when only 8% of the product coming out was Irish, means you have to delve into stuff that may not be good enough for airplay. Every single person in management in this radio station, every single programme director we've had has been an Irish national. Unlike other commercial stations.
Don't be coy, say who you mean!
98FM! So what I'm saying is that we are as patriotic as any other bunch of Irish people but we've been painted as less than that, which is grossly unfair.
By whom and how?
Back in the days of the Jobs in Music campaign. There was a bunch of hysterical musos - often quoted in hotpress - claiming that there was an anti-Irish music policy in FM104 and 98FM. I can even speak for our competitors. I know there wasn't an anti-Irish music policy. That's daft. Why would any radio station, based in the capital city of Ireland, have an anti-Irish music policy? All things being equal we would far prefer to play Irish music. We would rather give breaks to Irish bands than Mancunian bands. But the music has to stand on its own two feet first. It had to be stuff that wouldn't make our listeners immediately reach for the dial and change the station. That's the bottom line. We're not driven by bands, or by musicians, we're driven by songs.
You're driven by market surveys, surely?
By the songs market surveys tell us people want to hear.
So if market surveys say listeners to FM104 don't want to hear any percentage of Irish music would you go along with that?
Yes. And if the market decided they wanted twenty four hours a day of Gregorian Chant we'd play Gregorian Chant! We're democrats. We believe that the great public of Dublin have the right to decide what they are going to hear.
RTE Radio One dominates the market in a national sense. Do you have any problem with that?
No. A lot of people in here will also listen to RTE Radio One. If a major news story breaks and I want analysis, I'll get the headlines on my own station, the in-depth analysis on Radio One. So I don't see them as competitors. What they do is very heavily aimed at the over-forties; our audience is almost entirely under forty.
So are you more in direct competition with 2FM and 98FM?
They would be our main competitors.
Are you worried that, in the latest JNLR figures, FM104 is down 1% to 26% of the adult "listened yesterday" category?
That's not statistically relevant. A one or two point move in either direction is okay. The reality is that the gap between us and our nearest competitor is as wide as ever. 2FM have only 20% of listeners in Dublin, which is down from the 30% it had when I started in the business. That and 98FM had a similar percentage. But let's look at the under 35 market that 'listened yesterday.' We've 169,000 listeners, 98FM have 126,000 listeners. 2FM have only half of what we have, 84,000. And they are a considerably older station.
2FM broadcasters like Gerry Ryan and Tony Fenton are hugely successful and continue to increase their listenership with each JNLR study.
Absolutely. But there is only a marginal difference now, in Dublin, between the listenership to Gerry Ryan and the listenership for our presenter, Greg Gaughran, who plays records in the same day part. There is only a few thousand listeners between them. And the point is that Gerry Ryan has the benefit of national TV exposure and he's a heritage figure that's been around for twenty years.
Surely the point is that Gerry Ryan, love him or hate him, is an excellent broadcaster, who has that predominantly female listenership base that is, as you say, much sought after by FM104?
He has. But the fact is that we have almost the same number of listeners as Gerry Ryan and we're just playing music. So what that says is that there are two separate markets there.
Did you ever try to tempt Gerry away from RTE, as Today FM did?
Before we were number one we were interested in bringing in names from 2FM, yes. But I've become less convinced of the mobility of big shows. It doesn't seem to work. Like Ian Dempsey going to Today FM. He hasn't brought his audience with him. They're still locked into 2FM.
Are you concerned about the relaunch of 2FM?
We are concerned. We will watch them closely. It would be arrogant not to. If we're going to stand or fall according to market forces, then we all have to pay close attention to those market forces. Audiences are fickle. We don't own that 26% of the audience that currently listens to us.
Isn't your listenership base of 15-24 year olds more fickle than most?
Absolutely. You've hit the nail squarely on the head. That's one of the things that creates a work environment where we feel we have to fight for every listener. The younger age group are notoriously fickle and disloyal and that means there is no point in marketing to them, researching them and promoting to them now, then sitting back with smug looks on our faces.
Think of it this way. If you focus on the under-25 audience and cleave that audience into two, you have the dance-oriented people and the rock, Smashing Pumpkins brigade. Pop straddles both. But it's quite tricky devising a service that will keep a significant section of each of those communities happy. People that listen to the more strident form of dance music probably hate Smashing Pumpkins.
So you must be fearful of the new dance station in Dublin because it, too, will be targeting the 15-24 year olds?
'Fearful' is too strong a word. But we will be paying close attention to it also and may up the ante in terms of dance music on our own station. Suffice to say we've got our crash helmets on and we are ready for Spin FM.
In the latest JNLR figures your station dipped from 55% of the 15-24 'listened yesterday' to 48%. That is more than a one point loss. Surely that's a worry?
Yes. And this is something we are going to have to address.
Would you see Dave Fanning as a competitor in terms of the 24-35 year olds?
No. He never had high listenership figures. He was always Mr. Credibility. We got so much critical acclaim for Rock104. But Hanrahan s first rule of radio is that the commercial success of a radio station is in inverse proportion to the number of positive column inches you get from music journalists.
Are you saying music journalists are that out-of-touch with popular tastes?
Absolutely. They go for the rock cred. And the serious music-buying public are only a very small sub-set of the public at large. So Dave Fanning may get voted the Best DJ in hotpress but, for years, we had Eamon Carr here and he would have been the equivalent of Dave Fanning, yet the number of listeners he had was small. Likewise, John Kelly has cred but he has a small audience and always will have 7,000 against our 30,000 because of the nature of the music he plays. And he has the advantage of being on RTE Radio One. So I really don t see people like him, or Fanning, as competing for our audience.
What s your response to the news that another RTE name , Ray Darcy, is moving to Today FM, meaning their morning schedule will now include Ian Dempsey and Darcy?
I don t see that as a threat. There are some very good people in Today FM and they probably will succeed. When they become a success, they will deserve all the credit they receive.
In other words you don t believe they deserve all the hype they receive. Why single out Today FM for digs like that?
Because we are competing with them for advertising. And, though a lot of the advertising is based on ratings, it s also based on perceptions. Today FM are perceived by many people as having delivered an audience they haven t delivered yet. Let s not forget that Century collapsed and were seen as a failure, in terms of listenership. And Today FM, in Dublin, have approximately 60% of the listenership Century had. That s the best they ve done in four years. And I feel it is unfair that stations like ours and 98FM, who do a very good job in actually delivering listeners to advertisers, do not receive, from journalists, the kind of credit that goes to Today FM.
Whatever way you look at it, Eamon Dunphy is a huge success for Today FM and certainly delivers his audience to advertisers.
Absolutely. And any advertising placed around Eamon Dunphy deserves to be placed there. I wouldn t quibble with that. In fact, I suspect he ll even overtake RTE Radio One s drive-time show, with Rachel English, in time. I have a lot of respect for what Eamon does.
One thing I ve never understood is why Irish broadcasters have to be devoid of opinions of their own. Once again, that comes from the heritage of State-run radio. Eamon has opinions and that, I think, is part of the reason for the success of his show. But, again, I doubt that his show would sit well with our audience.
Besides, we re not looking to radically change our station right now. We re number one in the three most important day-parts in radio: breakfast, evening drive and late night talk. Adrian Kennedy has Chris Barry well and truly beaten at night time.
The battle between Barry and Kennedy was vicious at one point. Chris worked here, and when he decided to leave, you fought that, if I remember right.
The war came about because he broke his contract and walked out on us.
Did you threaten to out Chris Barry as gay if he didn t honour his contract?
No. I don t know of anybody doing that. I read the story in The Sunday Tribune and I was very hurt by it. I was accused, by him, of threatening to out him as gay. And let me say, unequivocally, on-the-record, that a significant number of my staff, here, and at Virgin, have been gay and I m not in the business of outing anybody.
Chris left and we ended up in a legal battle in the High Court. We settled out-of-court. On a compromise. That much is public knowledge but I really can t say any more than that because we signed a confidentiality agreement about the settlement. Eventually Chris ended up on 98FM. But as for the actual listenership figures now, we have 63,000 listeners for Adrian s talk show, Chris Barry has 44,000.
Either way, a lot of people particularly critics dismiss both those late night talk shows as low-brow.
Again, fuck the critics! Every part of the Dublin public are entitled to be heard. Free speech should be available to everybody and not just those who know how to parse a sentence properly and read The Irish Times. We don t mind if you are somewhat inarticulate. That, to me, is more democratic. We use articulacy less as a benchmark, than passion. If people feel passionate about a topic we want to hear their point-of-view. And the fact that people like what we do is evident, again, in the listenership figures. Vincent Browne, on RTE Radio One, for example, has 16,000 listeners in Dublin, less than a third the number we have.
Do you object to RTE getting the licence money?
The public pay for their broadcasting, therefore RTE has a lot of moral and cultural responsibilities that independent, privately owned radio stations don t have. As in, the Public Service remit. But there should be far greater transparency in terms of how that money is spent. And how stations in RTE cross-promote each other. For example, FM104 saves up its meagre marketing funds and decides to do a massive TV campaign to boost our listenership. Within days 2FM are able to pull a much bigger TV campaign out of the hat. That isn t fair. That is anti-competitive.
The IRTC has recently decided to grant a licence for a new FM station in the Dublin area. Does that worry you?
We ve learned how to compete. And there will be new competitors arriving all the time. It would be disingenuous of me to claim to be in favour of free market forces, then whinge because you ve got new competition. So I m not going to whinge: if they beat us, it s because they are better than us.
You claim on your press release that FM 104 is still Dublin s Top Dog . Does radio have to be about Top Dogs ?
98FM would take the position off us, given the opportunity, and we d do our damnedest to take it back. That s the nature of the beast. And Lite FM will follow a similar methodology. Spin FM will be the same. We compete aggressively for audiences. That s the business we re in. And, to tell you the truth, it s good fun, too. Myself and most of the people who work in FM104 love that battle, feed off it. When the JNLR figures come out everybody checks their own ratings and cheers go up all around if we beat any station at any level. Sometimes I think the buzz is better trying to become number one than be number one and remain up there. Though when we are competing that creates another kind of fire in the belly and an energy level in here that really does make FM104 a great place to work. That, too, I think is part of the reason for our success.