Let's get butt naked and talk!

AUDACIOUS self-promoter or uninhibited loose-hanging dude, the name, if not the member, of Pale frontman (or should that be Pale Frontal man?) Matthew Devereux will be on everyone's lips this week with the release of their new EP.

Refreshingly kicking with smooth undercurrents of naughty erotics, it shouldn't have come as a surprise when he suggested we meet and chat in the St. George Gym on South Great George's Street. When I ask him if he always does his interviews in the raw he modestly assures: "I've nothing to hide".

In a way, the concept of Matthew Devereux as an impish innocent somewhere beyond the inhibitions of everyday Ireland is appealing. Rather than sound stuffy I immediately agreed in as laid-back a manner as possible. As if it's everyday you have a photo shoot larking in the all-together in a première fitness club.

As it is, the two of us look like Laurel and Hardy on a Chippendale's tour. And although I wondered why photographer Colm Henry got to keep his clothes on I felt confident that a sense of aesthetic fair play for the readers would guarantee me, at least, a place somewhere in the background and hopefully out of focus.

Since the two of us were taking this whole thing very seriously we tried our best to circulate between the showers, the sauna, the pool and the steam room as plausibly as the Goliaths who were continually splashing around us. Left to our own devices we'd have happily gotten an ashtray and coffee machine installed and just lain there sweating away. Though the demigods of Dublin were too cool to view us aggressively their suspicion was palpable and probably wasn't helped by the occasional jokey comment of Matthew's. "Do you know how much we'd be getting paid if this was a porno movie?" Things like that.

In sheer state-of-the-art interview terms the afternoon was a bit chaotic. What with the demands of our health regime and the deadly effects of steam heat on my cheap little Sony tape-recorder, the transcript sometimes reads like Petronius at the baths back in ancient Rome, with bits crumbled away and left to the imagination.

Still, the whole thing began promisingly enough, the two of us snapping towels and talking business.

With the new EP, there's a marked departure from the ironic distancing of the first one. It's a bit hotter, a bit sexier, a bit more impish - is that the word I'm looking for, impish? Can you tell me a bit about the genesis of the piece?

I'll explain what happened in conjunction with the piece, which was a mix of materials that came from me, came from Columb, came from Shane. It was all cobbled together and we recorded a various number of new tracks. But I just felt that - I personally felt that some of the one's I'd done had been quite stagnant. And then Columb came forth with these particular songs and I reckoned I could sing them 'cause I was detached. I didn't have to sit down and try concentrating on whether what I was doing was contrived or not.

You just had to perform them.

Yeah, that's all I had to do. That was it but then I was made to feel a little bit more like a singer.

It freed you from having to worry about that. You heard the songs, you knew they were good and this just allowed you to tear away and have a good time with them.

Yeah. Yeah, 'cause the relationship with Columb is that he's like a mentor, he's producer, he's our manager, he's also a songwriter. I can wear various other hats, but I definitely don't have the time and the experience that Columb has got out of his period in the music business. So responsibility has been ladened on Colm, but he can handle it and the more pressure the better, he loves it.

I guess he does.

Oh, yeah.

• Since Columb Farrelly is so obviously central to the distinctive sound and feel of the Pale it's fitting that the first dash into the sauna got taken up singing his praises. From there it was the plunge pool, an ice cold dip that no health freak could disdain but which nearly killed me. In a flash all my prepared questions vanished. Important things like, 'Did you get your name from Blanche Devereux of The Golden Girls?' Suddenly surrounded by a gang of giants who flood the entire sauna by climbing in the pool with us we decide to retreat into the steamroom. Whether by impishness or innocence Matthew mentions, as we're opening the door, 'I wear dresses now onstage..'

Pretty ones?

Yeah some pretty ones.

Are you making a statement about gender or simply wearing them because they're more comfortable?

No, it's just the comfort.

Any lacy knickers?

No (giggle). I usually just wear boxer shorts underneath.

How do audiences respond to that, ever get any trouble?

Yes, indeed. We've had these bouncers who stood right up at the front of the stage and made fists at me as I performed, like how could I do this in front of an underage audience. If they're underage, they don't belong there in the first place. I've had people give me trouble about other things as well, like the drum machine

Who are your fashion role models?

Country dresses that's exactly what I wear, Rosanna Arquette.

Did you see her brother in Last Exit to Brooklyn? He wore a dress too.

Was that her brother?

Yeah. The one who gets hit by the car

I found that whole movie too real. Like with David Lynch . . .

Yeah, yeah, they're not making it up, it's realism.

The Snapper's getting a cinema release. You should enjoy that. I'm in it for about 15 seconds.

Are you good?

Yes, yes I am. (more giggles)

But would a porn movie have paid better?

Look at H&E Monthly, the only thing that adorns our shelves. Now if anything is perverse it's H&E Monthly, you have children, you have male, female. You have the odd horse walk by as well. (laughs naughtily).

Are we culturally underdeveloped in Ireland in relation to sexuality?

Certainly in relation to pornography we're uncultured. We still don't even know what pornography is.

I found it really educational

Pornography? Oh, yeah, 'Wow can you do that?!'

Yeah, 'let's try that tonight!' . . . . . .

Yeah, we're just not aware of it all over here. It's like prostitution being illegal, being dirty - which it is. All we need to do is professionalise prostitution, give them rooms. You know the gay community have it sorted out even cleaner than the heterosexual community. You know that we're not taking any examples from each other, I mean, they were clean, they were well kept, they were paid because, you know, they didn't have any pimps etc., etc.. It would make life a lot easier because prostitution is a service. You look at statistics, the statistics for rape and what they tell us about people's sexual needs.

But don't you think things are improving in Ireland?

Do I think they're improving? No. There's a new generation but I don't think things are improving sexually.

Would that be your generation?

No, people even younger than me.

Like teenagers now, kids just getting their fuzzy bits?

Yeah, the first time I ever found out about sex I thought I'd invented it.

You almost have to. I thought it was akin to a pact with the devil the first time I jerked off.

Did you get that rush in your toes the first time you ever came?

Yeah, for the first few times. In fact, I got it the other night, too. I don't know how to break this to you, Matthew . . .

You mean it happens to you all the time?

No, not all the time, only when I do it every three or four days.

Do you always come when you get involved?

No, sometimes only they do. Sometimes neither does.

Do you like wrestling?

That's a good healthy sport - something for boys to do when they get together.

In the area I grew up in and so on, men get very, very drunk and they want to wrestle each other. It's not unusual to see like a brick-layer and a bus driver in the middle of a pub wrestling with each other, tussling with each other very sexually. It's incredible.

Is there a need for some kind of genuine physical contact between men?

It could be a punch in the face, you know, it could be a kick in the rear-end.

Very often that's how it's done. There's gotta be an alternative.

Have you met this new generation of men - you know, hetero men - who openly hug each other?

Yeah. I've got a few hugs in my time which I'm grateful for.

Yeah, I find that quite confusing. What happened to the good old handshake?

Whatever happened to the good old hand job? At least then you knew where you stood.

• Amidst another chorus of schoolboy giggling we noticed that the recent swarm of muscly men had exited. We delicately tip-toed back out to the pool where Colm had his tripod neatly poised. My attempt to certify butch credentials by leaping in was marred when I actually slipped at the last minute and fell, somewhat walrus like, into the pool instead. Sensing my disorientation - remember I'm a totally nearsighted person, on top of being a complete physical wreck - Matthew happily picked up the thread of our conversation.

So I have this preference for being frank at the moment. Are there any questions I've been vague about?

Do you come every time?

Do I? No.

What's the ratio? One out of four? One out of three? Does the other person come?

Oh, yes.

So you're always looking after the other person?

Oh, yes.

What's your phone number?

(That impish laughter is really infectious. We have a go at it simultaneously)

You're going to be very popular when this comes out.

I always do, I always do.

Well, that suggests a good, generous temperament.

I have a very short temper sometimes, as well. I do want to physically beat partners up sometimes. Not knock them against the wall or anything, but I do

What, as a game?

A game, a game. Sometimes it's taken wrongly, it's taken badly. It's like violence is quite expressive also. It's, like, think of the fun we'd have if we got up here and trashed this place. And we'd be giggling hysterically like children. We would. And we'd be trashing the place. Do you ever feel the stuff that releases, like, when you destroy something? That's quite a rush. I'd like to explore that a bit more sexually.

Mm-hm. The explosive side of it.

I mean, though, suppose somebody got hurt.

Years ago, in New York, I had a boyfriend who was an Indian, Cherokee, and, interestingly enough, his name was Matthew as well - is that a hint? - and he was into a whole catalogue of things that I'd never done before: he liked being whipped and hung upside down and all these kinds of things, you know. But there was never any moralising - in fact, I was quite curious, you know, about what the limits were. We didn't become lovers, but we remained good friends. It was something we'd explored together which brought us closer - you must think I'm a terrible degenerate.

Oh no, that's not degenerate, you've got to stop that self-categorisation again . . .

I had to put that in so you could assure me it was alright.

I've had those moments though. Myself and a friend broke into a hotel once. It was being built and we rubbished it. We went in through this window into the dining room and it was very intense. But I'm not a hotel smasher or anything . . .

A lot of people find that side of the rock 'n' roll attitude essential. Whether it's simply 'rebellion' or some purely physiological thing I don't know, but I suspect it's the latter.

I like the latter, I like masculine bravado. I like men who show their strengths.

Or aggression?

I suffer from cowardice at the best of times. Then, there's another side of my character when I was younger which was quietly aggressive and rebelling socially. Now I realise that the things I'd really like to rebel against are far too big and they'd crush me like a squirming fly on a pig. When was the last time you cried?

All the time. Sometimes I wonder if I'm manic-depressive.

That reminds me of sections from Dead City Radio, very, very interesting, William S. Burroughs, I think he's very, very sexy.

That should get all our octogenarian readers' hearts racing.

Just listen to 'Apocalypse'. You know what else has that intense excitement as well? One of those 24 hour war channels - the excitement and the repulsion and the excitement you get from the repulsion of war. It doesn't seem like anybody's being harmed or hurt as much as I felt watching footage of the Eastern European struggle. You know, 40,000 women raped. I mean when I heard that I felt quite a welling up inside me. I felt very very tearful. I don't think I could ever express it musically. Having said that I'd love to achieve that but it's far too big for me. We've tried but we just seemed to be compounding it.

I don't know how to translate this, but the things that really affect me, there's a big gap, there's a whole silent majority who should be speaking out with you. Instead there's this whole 'peace is passé' thing. I've had people express to me saying 'I've just been going through a peace phase'. Peace is not a Steven Spielberg invention, like we don't all go see it in the first two weeks. It's like we all get tuned in watching genocide and we're all very interested watching genocide. I don't think people are going to realise - until it bites them on the ass - how important it is to get the silent majority together.

Some critics might say that the new EP is frivolous, that you're retreating from the issue into your private bedroom?

Many centuries of struggle and war could have been solved in the boudoir.

On your new EP you have songs there about perversions and kinky sex.

Yes, yes, yeah.

And about having new horizons open to you sexually. Have you found someone who opened your eyes? Or covered your eyes. Or put a blindfold on you?

Yeah, yeah, I have had my eyes opened, I have had my eyes opened sexually, and I've had my legs opened. But I've had my heart opened, too. But, you know, if I can be honest with you, it's ultimately all about friendship, friendship with people outside the sexual relationship. I've wanted to befriend more people than I've wanted to sleep with, to tell you the truth, and I've always had problems with several male friends because ahmm, you know the bravado thing. It's all show. It's all about display . . .

I'd really like to get to the root of it with men, I really like to talk about men's ways and in the same way that I like to talk about women's ways with them. All I really want to do is understand, but they won't pass this information, they won't give me this information. So, a lot of my friendships dissolve rather rapidly and it's not because I'm being nosy or I'm attacking their privacy - they just won't open up. I say how I feel sexually, artistically but it gets quite scary.

So affection is the larger issue, the broader issue. Have you ever found that the affection sours because you do sleep together?

Sex can sour intimacy. Foreplay can exist without intercourse. When sex is dropped into the Catholic soup it sours it. I'm still like suffering retrospectively from Catholicism in school and the heterosexuality I had pounded into me with a hammering. It's been really restrictive.

So, if affection is, or should be the overriding thing in human relations, does it follow that bisexuality would be the norm.

I think we should relax about the genders definitely - like, you know, to put the nail on the head, sex is not really the important issue.

What about monogamy then? Is it real or is it a completely fraudulent invention of the church and the state colluding to make little consumer households?

From discussions I've had, I personally believe it's a man's invention.

That's what the anthropological evidence looks like, to protect what they considered their property - their cattle, their house, their wife stuck in somewhere down the list and, of course, their male sons.

It almost seems natural in the course of nature that women should procreate as much as possible - if the drive is there - and that polygamy would actually be the proper route for women. But now, because we're having the sexual disillusion instead of a sexual revolution at the moment monogamy is going to become more popular obviously.

Is it because people are not up to the challenge?

It's because people are shitting in their pants because of the virus.

But isn't that just ignorance about it?

Yeah, I do think there's ignorance about it, but let me ask you, do you live with a polygamist state of mind?

Oh yeah, I'm definitely open to ideas, suggestions, chance meetings. I find sex really enriching.

Which are you, the hunter or the hunted? Do you have a preference or do you sway?

Well, since today's my birthday, I'm obviously a Leo. No, I don't have much hesitation about being the first to kind of go 'Want to see my etchings?' if I think somebody's really fanciable. I've certainly found when the clothes are off and you're in the bed you have to reveal yourself for what you are, because if you're bullshitting it becomes all too obvious.

I subscribe to polygamy, yes. I really think that's obvious but I have and have had a long term relationship and that's monogamous.

How does your partner feel about the fact that you're occasionally with somebody else?

I have monogamy and polygamy and I've just taken the choice, but I haven't been stereotyped, channelled or conned into being monogamous. Polygamy doesn't interest me, friendships and relationships interest me because I don't feel sexually adequate enough to be a full-time polygamist.

You mean you don't have the energy, is that what you mean?

I don't have the interest presently, I have new interests that are enriching me more.

Well, certainly musically you'd be considered a bit of a polygamist.

Oh yes, oh god, I'll go everywhere and take colours and contrasts and harmony and musical styles. Oh yeah, that's good, that's a good quote.

I can say you said it if you like, no problem.

Anyway, I've chosen monogamy, I don't sleep with other people.

How long has that been working for you?

It hasn't been working very well lately.

What? Four days?

No, because any time I'm travelling on the road and so on it's not always taken that I'm interested in sex, but for some people I've met, they did feel that I've been only interested in sex and maybe that's all they've been interested in. It's very troublesome, because realistically it's not my problem, it's their problem.

Misreading your intentions? That must be very hurtful when someone misconstrues your warmth?

Yeah, on all levels that can be very, very hurtful when your hospitality is pissed upon, if you'll excuse the term. I mean you're only trying to be nice. Maybe some people just get embarrassed, you know, but they can't trust it.

But that sounds really pure, Matthew.

No, no - it's . . . it is really quite pure . . . it is, yeah. (At this he nodded meditatively to himself) Maybe we should take up jogging?

That was to be the finale to our day's routine. We lathered up and Colm took another few shots. As we dressed, the imp in Matthew turned to me again with a question.

Is there anyone you'd like to see strip?

You mean aside from Matthew Devereux, the sexy lead singer of the Pale?

Yeah, like any movie stars of anything?

I liked Keanu Reeves in the current issue of Sky.

Yeah, yeah, nice ass, nice ass.

What about you?

Oh yeah, I'd love to see Gay Byrne naked.

• The Pale EP is released this week on Underscore Records