Glad To Be Gay

Fine Gael headquarters in Dublin’s Mount Street, in the basement of which this interview was conducted, is a haven of tranquility. I had expected a whirlwind of last minute activity, given the consistent low poll showings by their man who would be President. Instead, staff are shuffling around unhurriedly. One or two casually browse the morning newspapers. Is this the calm in the eye of the storm?
On TV, Gay Mitchell can come across as insubstantial and fast-talking – the confirmation boy still delighting in his first pair of long trousers. Face-to-face he is different, and more impressive. He has a business-like demeanour and plays up his political experience at every opportunity.
More than once during the interview an unexpected, unpolitical petulance comes through. He twice chastises me for what he calls my “stereotypical” line of questioning, as if he feels that his staunch Catholic beliefs should be of no concern to the electorate. He also seemed to over-react to a couple of my feeble attempts at humour. All told, I think I blew any chance I might have had of an invite to the Áras.

JACKIE HAYDEN: You were born in Inchicore in Dublin, and like myself, you would have grown up in a fairly traditional Catholic family ...
GAY MITCHELL: Well I grew up in a pretty untraditional family. My grandfather Mitchell was Methodist, and my mother, who was Catholic, was widowed aged 47 with nine of us. My eldest brother was killed by a lorry while cycling when he was 15. My eldest sister was born with a mental disability. So early life was quite difficult, but we stuck together and worked together. My mother went to work at 4 o’clock in the morning. As I said to somebody recently, two of us became councillors and Lord Mayor, TDs and Ministers, and I went on to the European Parliament, but not to worry, the other seven did well!
But how did the religion situation work itself out in the house?
Well, my mother was a very broad-minded woman. Even in later years, when she was tied to the bed a lot because she’d had a stroke, she got up to go out to vote for the divorce referendum even though she was a church-going Catholic. The attitude she gave us was “live and let live”, and I’m part of that “live and let live”. I don’t accept anybody thinking that because I’m Catholic I think I have a better view of life. I respect other people’s views, but they have to respect mine. I find in Irish society a little bit today that there is that lack of mutual respect.
So you wouldn’t describe yourself as a Catholic fundamentalist?
I don’t know anybody who’d describe me as that.
I don’t understand that. To me, you’re either a Catholic or you’re not. You either believe all the teachings of the church or you don’t.
No. You’re born with free will, and you make your decisions and you take responsibility. In any organisation, like in Fine Gael, or in any group, there are people who go to the extremes on the right or on the left, even though most people are in the middle. But I see Catholicism as a vehicle to Christianity, and when I think of Christianity I don’t think of condoms I think of “I was hungry and you gave me to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me to drink”. That’s what I think.
Do you think that’s been lost in the modern world?
No, I think a lot of people have let the Church down. There are a lot of really good people, like Brother Kevin in Church Street, feeding the poor. Sister Consilio is a very good friend of mine, and she does a lot of good work. There are people like that in every parish. Very humble people let down by others.
Aren’t those people used to excuse the wrongdoings within the Church?
No, I think the wrongdoings in the Church have been used to do down these good people. A lot of people like them in the Church have been let down by people who have not lived up to their beliefs and have been extremely abusive and in some cases used the Church as a place to hide while they were carrying on their activities.
You believe in God?
Of course I do.
How would you explain your concept of God?
I read the book, A History of Everything by ... I can’t think of his name... (possibly A Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson) ... and science has a lot to contribute, but science can only bring you back to a certain point that this is the last known organism and it’s a sort of a stone with suction pads. And I think, no, I don’t think I descended from that. Then you wonder, is there such a thing as eternity. When people think of eternity they think of the future. They ask, “will this ever stop or will it continue” and I think it will. But eternity is also in the past as well, and always was. So when you get over that and say, no we didn’t descend from a stone, there has to be some greater good, and that, in my view, is God. The gift of life .. we human beings are living art and we often don’t realise that. We see the joy and the tragedy in life and maybe someday we’ll understand the reasons for it.
Do you believe in heaven?
I believe there’s an afterlife, yes. I’ve stood beside the beds of my dead brother and sister who died from cancer. When they stopped breathing, their bodies were there but they were not there. I ask myself where did they go?
I’ve asked the same question – so what’s the answer?
I don’t have the answer either. I’m striving for that answer. The things that make sense to me are what Jesus Christ said, not the law and rules. What he said about being hungry and how he associated all the time with people who were on the edges.
Do you go to Mass regularly?
Yes, I go to Mass. Every Sunday.
And confession?
Very infrequently.
Is that because of a lack of sins to confess?
No. I’m as lacking in virtue as anybody else. But I believe we have a very forgiving God and we don’t need to be going to confession all the time.
Where do you stand on the sanctity of the confessional?
I think it’s important but I don’t think there’s going to any legislation to press people to reveal what goes on in the confessional, first of all because it’s anonymous... but there has to be way found for people to report paedophiles. Politics is about finding solutions, and we have to find a solution to the problem that arises when somebody comes into confession and says he’s abused children that he doesn’t get absolution, that he’s told hold on a second, this is a serious crime, so how that’s dealt with needs to be worked on.
Isn’t the legal route the only one?
No, the problem is that people come into confession anonymously. They don’t introduce themselves with their name and address. If the law was automatic, they wouldn’t come in. They wouldn’t go to confession. But some way has to be found to report those who commit sins against minors.
Would the same argument not apply to thieves and murderers?
The same thing could apply to murderers and others. I imagine that if somebody came in and said they’d committed a murder it’s likely the priest would halt the confession and say, “look, this is a very serious offence and I can’t just let it go”. If you’re a thief, you have to repay the money.
But you don’t see a law extending beyond the issue of child abuse?
I think we’re in very difficult waters because of the anonymous nature of confession. But a way has to be found ...
In a lot of cases the priest would know who that person was.
Why are you asking me about the priest so much? Am I not here to talk about running for President? I’m not running for Pope.
Not yet! It’s important people understand where you stand on these ...
(animatedly) What do you mean not yet?
I was joking! But people have a right to know where you stand on, say, the abortion issue. Are you opposed to abortion?
I believe life begins at conception. I don’t see any way around that. Science shows that to be the case. I believe any operation that might be necessary to save the life of the mother should be allowed.
So is that clear yes?
To what?
That you are anti-abortion.
I’m pro-life.
Right. What’s the difference?
(impatiently) The difference is that I oppose the death penalty. I believe that life begins at conception. That 100 million women had their lives terminated because they were women. That is wrong, in my view. I introduced The Care of Persons Board Bill in 2002, the fore-runner to the Crisis Pregnancy Agency. I did not vote for the first pro-life amendment in the Dail when I was a young TD under a lot of pressure. When they brought forward a bill in 2002 to put into the constitution I was health spokesman and lead the case against that insertion. So I’ve been very discerning in my views about this, and I don’t condemn anybody.
You mention the death penalty. You have come out in defence of a man on death row ..
(interrupts) Not a man. You’re asking me very leading questions, please, not a man. Loads of people. In the Dail records there are sixteen times I raised this... When Michael D Higgins was asked about it he said he never wrote to a judge. I don’t know why he’s hiding on this issue. (emphatically) I am against the death penalty. Full stop. I opposed a woman being buried up to the neck to be stoned to death in Nigeria for adultery. I called the Nigerian ambassador before the European affairs committee. I handed in a letter of protest on executions to the US embassy. On 16 occasions that I can find in the Dail records I raised the issue of the death penalty. A delegation of congressmen came from the US to the foreign affairs committee and I tackled them on the death penalty because they all support it because there’s votes in it.
But people think there’s only one individual...
(interrupts) No. Like, you’re asking me about this because somebody has told you somehow that this guy’s Catholic. I don’t know what your religion is but I’m Catholic and I expect to be respected for that. But when they go further to make out that I’m something different. I’m against the death penalty. Full stop. But the one they picked out was one to try and blacken me. One of the people in here (meaning Fine Gael headquarters) said to me, “you know, Gay, you know what’s wrong with you, you’re a liberal.” Look at the issues I’ve been involved in. Twenty years on the housing committee of the city council. I created the Lord Mayor’s commission on housing. That brought about the best report on housing since 1915 and caused the refurbishment of inner city flat complexes, not just in my own constituency but across the city. Secondly I campaigned against the death penalty. Thirdly, I introduced The Care of Persons Board Bill. Fourthly, I introduced votes for prisoners. And lastly when I went to the European parliament I was told there was a vacancy on the Foreign Affairs committee you should take that. I said no and went onto the Development committee, because 36,000 children are dying each day. It’s now down to 22,000 per day.
Who called you a liberal?
(pause) A member of the staff here. But who’s that the record of?
It’s a pretty impressive record. But I don’t see why that precludes questions asking ...
(interrupts) No, but you’re asking me questions of a stereotypical nature. And I’m saying to you that I believe that handsome is as handsome does. Politicians who smile and who say all the right things .. who’s achieved these things? Who has worked on these things? I’ve given my life to these things. There’s no return for me, there’s no votes for me to work for seven years on the Development Committee in parliament. I’m the author on the basic law of the whole European Union dealing with the developing world. I’m also the author on behalf of the European Parliament of the law which provided one billion euro for emergency food aid. I got that through, even though the commission thought they couldn’t get it through. I negotiated with the council and I got it through in a hundred days, and found the money. These are the issues I’ve devoted my life to. By your works you know them, that’s my motto.
In relation to the Presidency, what would you put forward as your main strengths?
My life’s experience. The country is in a very difficult situation, and I do difficulty. I understand difficulty. I’ve grown up in difficult circumstances. I had to leave school and go to work when I was 16 and study at night. I understand challenge. I don’t think anybody (in my presidential race) has the breadth of experience. I’ve given you some of the issues I’ve worked on. I was 20 years a councillor. 26 years a TD. I was a reforming Lord Mayor. I set up the Dublin International Sports Council under Tony O’Reilly. I founded the IMPAC Literary Award, the richest in the world, and I found the money for it, €100,000 for one work of fiction. I was Minister for European Affairs, I negotiated the Amsterdam Treaty, seven years in the European Parliament, shadow minister for Foreign Affairs twice, Justice, Tourism and Transport. I accompanied Taoiseach John Bruton to all European Council meeting and I accompanied President Mary Robinson abroad more than any Minister. When I look at this job, I want to be inclusive, but not politically correct. You look like you have another question...
Do you have weaknesses?
I’m sure I have. Yeah.
What are they?
Look, everybody has weaknesses and we’re all human. It would be very silly of me not to think I have. I’m not good at sports. I play a bit of golf and I watch most games. And I can’t sing. But I have been good at politics. The office of Lord Mayor and the office of Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee are very tightly defined. So is the office of the Presidency. There are two issues I’d want to raise. One is the developing world. We could lead the developing world and my experience is very strong in that area. By 2050 there’ll be 2 billion more people on the earth and they’ll need to be fed. In time they could become our trading partners. With our history of famine and as missionaries and NGOs we could lead the world on that issue and that would make the world a safer place for the next generation. Then there’s the area of suicide. I believe the problem of suicide we’re not tackling it the way we should. I’ve spoken on this since the first day I sought the nomination. I spoke to a man whose son had committed suicide and his girl-friend did the same a month later. I shouldn’t say committed suicide. Died by suicide is apparently the correct way of saying it. This is something the President could really do something about. The President has the power to summon the Dail and Senate. What has gone wrong that there’s this unhappiness? It’s been described to me as being in a very dark room with no doors. I think we’ve got to find that door.
How do we do that?
In order to do that we’ve got to be really inclusive. This is one of the problems we have in Irish society. We have an idea of inconclusiveness that is politically correct, inconclusive of the trend of the day. It’s like being pregnant. You’re either pregnant or you’re not. You’re either inclusive or you’re not.
Have you ever been in that dark room yourself?
No, but I have had my ups and downs, including when my brother and sister died. They were very bleak times.
But no thoughts of suicide?
No... No.
Regarding the Presidency, Sean Gallagher seems to be doing well in the polls. Is he a Fianna Fail candidate in sheep’s clothing as it were?
All of the candidates are in a poll situation which is very volatile. The only thing you can compare it with are the polls at the last Presidential election fourteen years ago. Those polls were totally wrong. They said Adi Roche would get 38% and she actually got less than 7%. So I wouldn’t put much trust in polls right now. That’s my view generally of polls.
Gallagher was until recently on the Fianna Fail National Executive, so do you feel he has some responsibility for the failings of the last government?
(pauses) Well, look, he wasn’t in the Dáil or in the government. He was a party supporter and I wouldn’t visit those responsibilities on him. He wasn’t in an executive cabinet position that I know of.
You said wouldn’t put much trust in polls, but Fine Gael conduct polls. So are any of them believable?
I think Presidential polls are very volatile.
Why?
It’s like a national by-election. Unlike a general election, where you have candidates in each constituency, you don’t have policy debates like what are you going to do about my local school or about education generally, or about the local hospital or tax. So the debates take place about a lot of celebrity stuff. Near the end of the campaign people look at it and say, hold on, where’s our country at and who do we really need as President? Then they make it into a more serious decision and firm up their views.
But you’re not doing well in the polls, so what’s the explanation for that?
Well, I don’t know. I suspect there may be people who feel that if they say they’re not going to vote Fine Gael in the polls it might cause Fine Gael to sit up and take notice. I’m the only candidate running on the government side who’s not retired. I’m an active member of the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party and an MEP. So that may be drawing some of the opprobrium. That’s in the poll stages. In the final stages, people want the government to take decisions. They want this sorted. It’s in a mess and they want a future for their children. In their heart of hearts people want leadership and firm decisions made.
Could it be argued that some of the attacks on Martin McGuinness back-fired and helped Sinn Fein move into being the main opposition party?
I haven’t attacked anybody. I asked three questions of Martin McGuinness. When did he leave the IRA, why does he say he left in 1974 when we know he didn’t? He says that he lives on the average industrial wage. Some of them seem to live in very nice circumstances on the average wage! The third thing is why does he says he’s not the Sinn Fein candidate? You just described him as the Sinn Fein candidate. He is the Sinn Fein candidate. They’re the only issues I raised about him. They’re not attacks. They’re reasonable questions.
How do you know McGuinness didn’t leave the IRA in 1974?
A Garda Commissioner gave evidence that he didn’t ...
Do you accept that?
I do. I have reason to believe that’s the case.
Looking towards the future in Irish politics, do you think there’s a possibility of a Fianna Fail-Fine Gael link-up?
My belief is that Ireland will in some way become united. And that’s what I want. I think we have a very partitionist mentality. I made a speech about three years ago at Griffith’s graveside and spoke about the original idea of Sinn Fein. The fact is that, coming back to this inclusiveness I speak of, if you’re Irish you should be respected. If you see yourself as British and Irish you should be respected. If you see yourself as European and Irish you should be respected. So the first thing we have to do is unite people. I asked this long before the Queen’s visit, without diminishing the role of the President of Ireland, what could the President and the Queen do together in Northern Ireland to unite people, unite cultures, unite hearts. And in the future, how can we stop being partitionist and try to bring people together. If you look at what’s happened in Europe where 60 million people were killed in the first half of the last century, most of them killing each other, we’ve learned to live together, not in a perfect position by any means, but we’re in a far better place than we were in the first half of the last century. So bringing people together on the island of Ireland in my view is something we need to be thinking about. So I don’t think the future Ireland is going to be a place where Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will come together or not, but a country where north and south come together in some way that will be mutually respectful. As we approach 2016, what is the agenda? What can we do to do what Collins said. He said, this is the means to achieve an end. If we’d worked on that more over the years we may have been a lot further down the road.
Do you see any way back for Fianna Fáil?
I do. Yes. If they do something like what Alan Dukes did in ’87 and put the country first, with the Tallaght strategy. It wasn’t a popular thing to do at the time and we went through a lot of criticism, but if Fianna Fail can get back to that sort of thinking ... They had a Cáirde Fail lunch or dinner recently and there were quite a few people at it, so it won’t happen overnight, but I think they have the capacity to reinvent themselves.
So what about Fianna Fail and Sinn Féin merging as some kind of new republican party?
I find that hard to see. We’ve had the rise of parties before, like the Workers Party and they merged with Labour, but the strength of Sinn Fein is on the other side of the border and until we actually can more than just bring communities together under a regional administration we can bring people together in hearts and minds and in respect for each other. I think Sinn Féin are going to be still in the rut that they’re in. They’re a party that also in time will reinvent themselves.
I saw a merger with Fianna Fáil as part of that reinvention?
Yeah. I find it hard to see that a party like Fianna Fáil would merge with Sinn Féin and become involved in politics north of the border. I think in time when the North-South problem is addressed, and I hope it will be with some kind of New Ireland Forum mark two and this time with Unionists taking part. I think the whole political structures will be different then. My brother once asked the King of Spain what was Spain like under Franco. The King replied that Franco was a very far-seeing man. When he was being trained to become King he asked could he attend cabinet meetings and Franco said no, and added that “Spain after my departure will be a very different place.” I think Ireland in the future will be a very different place.
What will be the significant differences?
We will start to respect difference and diversity more. It will be a warm place for Catholics and Protestants of any denomination, for non-believers. People won’t be as concerned about the colour of your skin.
Does that imply that Ireland is not a warm place for Catholics now?
I think there’s a lack of respect for diversity in Ireland now. For too long, we had a Catholic ethos that dominated. The free-will of people did not operate as it should and now I think there are other ethos trying to replace that.
What can governments do to stoke that along?
We can try to ensure that, for example, democracy functions and that people have a real say. We have a big deficit in democracy in this country. The Dáil doesn’t function as a parliament. I wrote a book called By Dáil Account and the last chapter covers how I see the government and the governance of Ireland being brought to the cutting edge of accountability. As part of that we have to depart from the tradition in Irish politics where they say yes and we say no. One of the reason I found it difficult to come back to Irish politics is that with the European Parliament I got used to being involved in committees where you really make decisions. Whereas here you’re either in government or you spend your time persecuting the government. I think we really need to respect democracy in our parliament and have people take the responsibility that goes with that as TDs. I think we’d all find that more interesting and more useful.
You mentioned your setting up of the IMPAC book award. Was that because you have a particular commitment to literature?
Quite frankly, I was thinking of ways to promote Dublin when I was Lord Mayor. I’d asked why, for example, could we not bring the Olympics to Dublin or the European Championships or the World Championships? And they all said, start with this and start with that. But I went to Gothenburg that at the time had a population of less than half a million and they got the World Championships. I asked them what they were going to do for hotel beds and they said they were going to buy the ones that were left over from the Winter Olympics in France. Here we were saying we can’t do this for all sorts of reasons. So I thought Dublin has had three Nobel Prizewinners for Literature, Yeats, Beckett and Shaw. We have the greatest orator in the English tongue, Burke. The greatest satirist Swift. Probably the greatest novelist of the 20th century, Joyce. Vienna is identified with music so I thought why can’t the rest of the world identify Dublin with literature? I put David Norris on the committee to look into this, and Professor Gus Martin and others. So the IMPAC award was born. It’s ten years old and a great way to promote Dublin.
You mentioned Joyce. Have you read Ulysses?
No. I tried to read Ulysses. (laughs) I tried, like many others before me! But I’m afraid I didn’t get very far.
Will you try again?
Well, maybe I’ll have the time to try again, but I’m afraid it’s over my head a bit!