The Hot Press Interview with John Leahy

Renua Ireland was set up in 2015 by the conservative ex-Fine Gael government minister, Lucinda Creighton. After a disastrous General Election in 2016, in which Creighton lost her seat to pro-Choice Fine Gael candidate, Kate O’Connell, the party was effectively wiped out, Creighton duly fell on her sword.

The new leader of the party, John Leahy, has a relatively low – as in virtually non-existent – national profile. But while his face might not be familiar, you’ll probably be seeing a lot more of Leahy over the coming months. He is the only leader of a political party in Ireland who is going to campaign against a woman’s right to choose in the promised referendum to Repeal the 8th. It’s a stance that – like his attitude to gender quotas in politics – will offend many, and which goes against the grain for us here at Hot Press. The magazine has been part of the struggle for women’s rights since its inception 40 years ago. We have also been vocal in campaigning to Repeal the Eighth.

But it should be helpful to hear John Leahy’s views so that pro-choice campaigners will get a further insight into some of the stratagems they’ll come up against. Leahy is married with two children and has been a County Councillor in Offaly since 2009. He’s also the Offaly GAA Coaching & Games Promotion Officer.

Jason O’Toole: Did you always want to be a politician?

John Leahy: No. I always liked dealing with people. I was very fortunate that I became a full-time games developer administrator for the GAA. I realised very shortly after, that there’s no difference in politics and the GAA job – you were constantly providing a service and helping people. But I was in my late twenties before I realised that I’d like to go down the political route.

It must be strange, being thrust into the limelight now.

Ah, not really. Because the role I was in as games administrator, you were constantly standing in front of people, delivering speeches. So, there’s very little difference.

Did you go to university?

I was a home bird. I didn’t want to go university, so I took up an apprenticeship in Tullamore as a plant maintenance fitter. I qualified, but after two years I knew that I should’ve got into sports or something dealing with people – so I started doing sport courses in the evening.

Were you big into music?

No. Never into music. Even now, I wouldn’t listen to much. I like dancing at social events. Music wouldn’t be one of my stronger points.

Do you like a drink?

I never drank. I’m a pioneer. That will tell you how wild I was (laughs)! I don’t want to mention it, to be honest with you.

Why not?

I didn’t want to sound like a complete and utter dry shite! (Laughs).

Are you a pioneer because of religion?

Not really. It was more self-confidence in myself. The majority of people I would’ve grown up with drank because their friend was drinking. I just felt I was going to do it when I wanted to do it, you know? And I had a car very young and I was the main chauffeur for all the lads when we were out on the town.

Would you describe yourself as religious?

I would be a religious person, yes.

So you believe in heaven and hell?

I do, yeah. I would indeed.

What’s heaven like for you?

I hope it has a nice couch I can sit back on and relax (laughs). And a deep blue sky and nice clouds and the sun is shining. That’s the way I imagine it.

Is God a man or a woman?

Man, to me.

Is it the male God of the Old Testament?

Would you believe, Jason, I probably don’t get that deep into religion. I would be a church-goer. I try to go once a week. But getting into the Old Testament/New Testament, I don’t really have an opinion on it. I wouldn’t be that deep thinking. I do believe in right and wrong. I do believe in having a conscience – that if you try to do the right thing, you’ll get some sort of luck on the way in through the pearly gates.

I’d assume, if somebody says they’re religious, that they’d have thought a lot about it.

No, I haven’t, to be honest with you. I don’t enforce my religious beliefs on anybody. I don’t discuss it. There’s a perception that Renua is this religious party: I don’t know what people’s religious beliefs are in the party.

Would you see all religions as equal?

I would. You take someone, say maybe a Protestant, a Jehovah’s Witness, whatever religion it is – they were brought up to believe in whatever they believe in, no different than I was. They way I see it is: I support my home team and they support their home team.

Do religious cults like the Moonies or the Scientology deserve equal respect?

Are these the groups that end up committing suicide and killing themselves?

No. Scientology is Tom Cruise’s religion. They and the Moonies are sometimes classified as cults.

I didn’t even know that Tom Cruise was into some sort of religion or cult. I don’t know enough about it to answer the question, Jason. But it’s each to their own – that’s the way I see it.

Danny Healy-Rae once told me during a Hot Press Interview that Noah’s Ark was proof that God was in charge of the weather.

It’s comical, isn’t it? Sure, he got the headlines. He got what he wanted. The Healy-Raes are brilliant at it. And for some unknown reason, the general public love listening to it.

Do you think the Church is out of touch?

Do I think there should be women priests? Do I think priests should be married? Yes, I do. We’re going through an age where the Catholic Church are going to start running out of resources. It’s not like a budget can be passed like the government and we’ll bring in more resources and more priests. This is something that has to be vocational. It’s dying on the ground. They need to take action.

Do you think sex before marriage is a sin?

No, not at all. If that’s the case I sinned anyway, that’s for sure!

Growing up, how important was chasing women and sex for you?

Ah, every person likes to chase. I was no different. I met my wife when I was 20. I had my first date with her on the night of my 21st birthday. We’re 10 years married. My chasing days were curtailed to a certain degree – because at 21 I had my first long-term relationship. But I wasn’t too shy in flirting!

How old were you when you popped your cherry?

How old was I when I lost my virginity? Would you believe I lost my virginity when I was 21.

I’m presuming you’re going to tell me the lucky lady in question is now your wife?

Yeah. When this article comes out, she’ll be happy to hear that. That’s the only thing she’ll see! (Laughs).

And, of course, a politician would never lie!

No! She knows the truth anyway, so you’re okay.

Does the fact that you’ve only ever had one intimate relationship make you curious about other women?

I’m happy and content in my own space. So, this temptation of drink and drugs and sex and all that, it doesn’t come into play. The biggest problem I would have is – and my wife would be constantly giving out to me on this one – is that I work too many hours. Some people drink. Some take marijuana. Some might be sex addicts. But for me, my drive is getting stuff done and constantly working to solve problems.

What are your thoughts on the #MeToo movement?

I welcome the movement. There has been too much secrecy on too many things in Ireland. We need to be a truthful society – to let the light in. Renua Ireland believes in transparency and accountability in all aspects of life.

Do we need new laws to protect children from sex predators?

Oh, without a doubt. A minimum 10 years. End of story. Character references, what they’ve done in the past, how sorry they are – it makes no odds. Ten years minimum. Break the key and throw it away. If it was proven without a shadow of a doubt, I wouldn’t even hear evidence. That’s how cruel I would be. It’s crazy what’s going on. People are very angry over it. We have criminals who have 14 or 15 convictions still on the streets today. I would be locking them up – end of story. I’d be very passionate about that. Statistics, particularly from the Gardai, are bunk. In rural Ireland, such is the level of fear, people are taking sleeping tablets at night. Farmers are leaving the land. Who is going to speak for them?

Do you think somebody should go to prison for shooting an intruder?

Oh, not at all, if somebody comes inside your door and you feel threatened in any shape or form. People are fearing for their lives because these thugs are very deliberate in what they’re doing. They’re beating people so bad that when they knock on the next door, the person gives them everything because they’re in so much fear. The criminals are very clever; they’re getting free publicity from what they’re doing at the moment. If someone has a gun and felt violated and shot someone, I’d stand on the picket line to make sure they weren’t jailed.

What’s your take on gender quotas?

I think women hate this topic! The situation at the moment is farcical: you’ve political parties running around trying to get ‘paper candidates’ – women who’ll put their name on a ballot paper so they meet the gender quotas. Women don’t want to get into politics for obvious reasons: it’s a motherly instinct to make sure things are proper and right at home. There’s a lot of unsociable hours and you miss a lot of family time. I think women prioritise family. That lifestyle is not attractive to women. It’s like the priesthood: women are just not joining up because of the time constraints involved.

But the purpose of gender quotas is to help break down barriers…

I don’t think there’s any discrimination in politics whatsoever. If women want to get involved in politics, the opportunity is there, in my opinion. I think the way politics is gone, you’re going to see less and less people putting themselves forward. I want to be very clear: I’m against gender quotas because it’s gone to the extreme now. It’s forcing women on a ballot paper. Political parties are forcing women to put themselves forward – even as a ‘paper candidate’. It’s getting higher and higher. I wouldn’t be in favour of gender quotas because I think it’s unfair to women.

Where do you stand on prostitution?

You can have all the values you want – you take working girls, it’s always going to happen. I believe women should be put in a safe place. There’s always going to be ways and means of getting around it. If it’s happening we should accept it, and try to put the proper procedures in place so women are protected. Unfortunately, we live in a society where you have access to the internet; people are more sexually orientated now. It’s been proven with youngsters coming up, they’re exposed to so much. As long as everyone can remember there’s always been working girls. There should be protections put in place for women.

Like in the red light district in Amsterdam, which is policed properly?

Yeah. There’s no point burying our heads in the sand. There’s always going to be a want and a need there for that industry. So, why do we have a situation whereby we’re putting women who choose to do that, for whatever reason, in danger? You’re always going to have people who will exploit vulnerable women. Why not try to take the risk out of it for them?

You’ve thought about this long and hard.

I work very much off the basis: ‘Is it a problem? Can it be resolved? What are the solutions?’ If someone was to look at my profile – and you’re probably the first to actually ask me as deep questions, in terms of faith – you’d think I was this holy boy who goes to mass every Sunday, doesn’t drink. Do you know what I’m saying? ‘Sure, this lad know probably has all his money under his bed.’ But I’m far from that. I’m very open-minded.

What way did you vote in the marriage equality referendum?

I voted ‘No’. It wasn’t so much that I was anti-anything; I looked at it and it got too confusing and too messy. The message was lost in the referendum, and it was hard to decipher what was going to happen and not happen.

But how would it be confusing if it’s just down to allowing same-sex couples to get married?

But it was probably venturing into the whole family network – adoptions and having children.

So, you voted ‘No’ because you’re against same-sex couples adopting?

No. And it’s probably wrong for me to make that statement, because I honestly can’t remember. I’m not trying to fudge it now. I do know that I watched a debate on it and I remember talking to my wife, and I just said to her, ‘This has gone crazy’. It’s amazing with a referendum – it’s always easier to say ‘No’ when there’s some doubt. I had doubt at the time. I can’t remember what the exact doubts were. I’ve some good friends that are gay and I’ve no difficulty with it. You go through different phases in your life. I’m in a different place now than I was back when the referendum was happening.

You’re now saying you’ve have no problems with same-sex couples adopting?

I honestly don’t have a difficulty with it. I do believe if there’s a gay couple and they want to rear a child, who am I to say that they’re going to do a better or worse job than what I would do?

The Primate of Ireland, Archbishop Eamon Martin told me that being homosexual is not a sin, but the act of homosexuality is a sin. Isn’t that just nonsense?

Completely. That’s dinosaur talk.

You now want to say ‘No’ to repealing the 8th Amendment.

We’re the only political party in the country that’s ‘pro-life’. I honestly believe, Jason, that there’s a silent majority out there at the moment that share the same views as ourselves. A lot of people have, you could say, Christian values – or values in various religions.

You believe it will be defeated?

I one hundred percent believe it’s going to be defeated.

The 8th Amendment says that a woman’s life is worth no more, ever, than the life of an embryo, conceived even a week ago. Do you think that’s right?

Yes, because under the constitution the rights of both are protected. What other constitution in the world provides the State with a designated responsibility, one they too often have failed to live up to, to protect the pregnant mother?

Why are you against repealing it?

I think there’s enough legislation there. We’ve undertaken a campaign on the road showing the current legislation and how it protects women and how it protects the unborn. We don’t want the doors open for abortion on demand – and that’s the road it’s taking. If the wording is changed slightly, it just keeps nipping away at it. And if you take in the UK at the moment, 90 percent of the kids that are diagnosed with Down Syndrome are aborted. (This is incorrect, misleading and irrelevant to the proposals in Ireland. Aoife Barry has done a superb analysis of the figures on journal.ie – Ed). I do not want to see a country whereby for any little discrepancy showing up in a scan, you’re aborting a child. We’ve heard stories where women have been told that their child was going to be severely disabled, or have severe autism, and the children are alive today and in school.

Clearly you don’t trust women to exercise their judgement, either intellectually or morally.

That would absolutely not be the case. In fact, I trust women, if that is the right word and I am not sure it is, more than men in these scenarios. It is after all women who finally deal with these issues. But my concern is that if you have a medical system whose ethos is not pro-life, which favours eugenics, people may be sped into decisions they subsequently regret.

What was your reaction to the report of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment?

I went to the first sitting of the Oireachtas Committee, I could sense that the politicians in the room had their minds made up. They were giving their positions before they were on the Oireachtas Committee. When the Oireachtas Committee was established, and before they even met, they were giving their interpretation of what way they were going.

What do you say to the view that a woman is entitled to bodily autonomy?

It’s not as simple as that. This is not just about the mother: this is about two people, this is about the child and this is about the mother. So, to us, it’s not about the woman having the right to do what she wants with her own body – there is two people involved in this. And a third person if you really want to go deep enough, because there’s a father of the child as well, and he should have a say in it.

What about fatal foetal abnormalities?

If the child is born for six seconds, six minutes, six days, 60 days, six years – you should give it every opportunity to have life. Nobody can deny that medicine and medical procedures are constantly improving. And there have been cases where pregnant women have been diagnosed with fatal foetal abnormalities, and the children have been born and are still alive. You should give your child the right to live.

What about the mothers who don’t want to go through the experience of giving birth where there’s a fatal foetal abnormality?

If it’s emotionally too difficult and they’re suicidal in any way, again, under the constitution, a new piece of legislation was brought in 2013. The mother of the child would be assessed and if they felt she could not go through that – if she emotionally, mentally and physically could not go through that – there would be a termination. That option is there for any woman who goes through that.

What about in cases of rape?

I suppose in cases of rape, it’s probably the most difficult. And for a man it’s very difficult for me to have the conversation about it. It’s the most horrendous thing that can happen to any woman. But aborting a child from rape doesn’t solve the issue. If we wanted to resolve the issue with rape, we’d have heavier sentences on the people who commit this crime. It’s been proven and there are statistics from the Rape Crisis Centre that abortion for a rape victim is not the solution either. And it has been proven that women who have been raped and had an abortion suffer even more severely on the back of it, because number one is the rape and then they have the termination of a child. But unfortunately, rape is the most sensitive one and it’s very hard to talk about it and to find the right solution to it.

So, you’re against abortion in cases of rape?

Yeah. Well, if the woman presents herself that basically she’s suicidal or mentally or physically can’t go through with it – in other words, in danger – we know that the legislation is there for doctors to act in the right fashion. If that means the unborn child has to be terminated, Renua have no difficulty with that. The pro-choice people would try to make out that we’re from the stone age.

What if you had a daughter who was raped and wanted an abortion?

I would like her to have the child. Because it was rape doesn’t mean that that unborn child that’s in that womb is any worse of a person than a person who hasn’t been born through rape. I’m always very sensitive talking about the rape situation. There are a lot of people who are born to rape that could feel that, in some respects, we’re talking about them as if they were an alien.

If she decided to go ahead with an abortion, would you disown her?

No, I would never disown my own child. I don’t think anyone would, no matter what your stances are. I’ve taken a stance on my own core values. But if my daughter decided she was going to abort the child – even if it wasn’t a rape situation – I wouldn’t disown my child. I would be disappointed in the fact that she knows the way I stand on things.

You’re going to alienate a lot of women – and men – who believe it’s a woman’s body and a woman’s right to choose.

We are very aware of that. It is a hugely sensitive issue. We will not tell people what to do or lecture people or attack people – it is just our core value that the child in the womb has human rights, a view shared by the UN committee on disability.

Why is it okay to export the problem by allowing women to travel to the UK for an abortion?

It’s open to the charge of being an Irish solution to an Irish problem. But sometimes Irish solutions work best. There are no perfect solutions to this, Jason.

Who’s to blame for how badly Renua did in the last general election?

I don’t operate that way. It’s not that I want to be a goodie two shoes, but everyone puts their name forward to do the right thing. Nobody woke up in the morning to say, ‘I’m going to destroy Renua’. Everybody invested a huge amount of time and resources to make it work. Unfortunately, to break into the political world is very difficult.

What about Lucinda?

Lucinda stood up for what she believed in. She was a woman of principle. I do believe she was targeted in the general election. There were a lot of resources put into Fine Gael in that constituency. She was a threat in the political world. It didn’t help taking on Denis O’Brien. He’s a heavyweight. Personally, myself, I would’ve let that be. You can’t change everything in the world.

Some disgruntled members of Renua blame Eddie Hobbs for the disastrous election.

Eddie’s a very much love/hate character. He was targeted to a certain a degree and it was easy for members within Renua to blame Eddie because everybody has to blame somebody. But I wouldn’t blame Eddie. I have unbelievable time for Eddie. People forget this: after the general election, Eddie could’ve hid under a bush – instead, he toured the whole country to try to resuscitate it. There’s fighting spirit in Eddie.

What do you make of Leo Varadkar?

Leo’s Leo! He’s full of spin. Leo should’ve been in Renua because I know he’s a personal friend of Lucinda’s, but I never realised they were so close! But when Lucinda left Fine Gael, she must’ve handed him the Renua manifesto. I had never heard him talking about people getting up early, I never heard him talk about taxpayers. But when he became Taoiseach, he came out with all this visionary stuff. Now, am I crying because Leo stole our clothes? No, I’m not. I’m delighted. If people really want to look at government policy, there is evidence of the Renua manifesto in government now.

What do you make of Donald Trump?

People knew exactly what they were getting when they voted for Donald Trump. He’s tried to do most of what he said he was going to do. It was never possible to do it all because of the political system that’s out there. You have to give him credit: against all odds, he broke into the biggest political scene in the world. And he’s better known than Simon Cowell. So, there’s a lot to be said for that.

You’re the first politician I’ve talked to that doesn’t revile the guy.

We need America. We’re a small open economy. I don’t think all these politicians up in Dublin who are shouting and roaring about Donald Trump realise that at the end of the day, he’ll come and go. It’s about the relationship we have with the country. But in terms of Trump, he broke down the biggest political barrier that you could ever break down and people supported him, and for that I would have great admiration. But do I believe in what he says and does must of the time? No.

People talk about him a lot…

You could ask a 13-year-old in Ireland who Leo Varadkar was and they wouldn’t know. Ask them who Donald Trump is and they’ll know. There’s a lot to be said for that. I was fortunate enough that we went over to New York for a few days, and everybody is engaged in politics over there: what’s Trump saying? What’s he doing? What harm is he doing? What good is he doing? And, do you know what? He’s energised the whole political system, because people are talking about it. He’ll go down in history.