Talk On The Wildside

These are busy days indeed for Clare McKeon. The 37-year-old broadcaster wanders the corridor of the newly-opened Radisson Hotel, breast-feeding her two-month-old baby Neil as she walks, and fills me in on her busy schedule as we search for somewhere quiet to do this interview. Not only does she have a young baby to take care of and a weekly television chat show to research, but she s also just opened a new business in Sandycove a beauty and massage centre called Bliss.
It s all been very hectic but it s still quite encouraging because people have recognised what I m trying to do, she says in her instantly recognisable middle-class Dublin accent. You know, you get an idea and you bring it to the marketplace and people go yeah, I really like this . So it s really encouraging and uplifting, even though it s very tiring with the baby and everything. A bit like the TV show really.
If her business venture is anywhere near as successful as her television show then young Neil certainly won t be running out of nappies in the near future. Now in its second season, Network 2 s Later With Clare McKeon has been steadily attracting record audiences mainly due to its controversial topic-driven agenda and highly intimate format. Tackling subjects that most other chat shows wouldn t dare touch with a 50-foot TV mast ( e.g. transexualism) and giving them full attention for an hour can sometimes make the show a real hit-or-miss affair but it s generally acknowledged that McKeon s soft and motherly approach can often cause guests to spill beans they d never spill for Gaybo or Pat Kenny. Recently she scored a media coup by bringing Annie Murphy together with the former lover of Fr. Michael Cleary a risky move that few others would have dared to make.
But then Clare McKeon has never been scared of controversy. Born and bred in Sutton, she did a communications course in UCD and a PhD in San Francisco, before returning to Dublin to work with the BBC. She quickly graduated to local radio, where she worked with almost all of the main commercial stations, presenting Chris Barry-type talk shows.
I was with Century, 98FM and FM104, she tells me. I went from Century onto the dole and then from the dole onto 98FM and then I was head-hunted from 98FM by FM104. Finally I was called by RTE to do my first TV show. I was the first person to have worked in local radio and RTE at the same time.
We eventually find a table in a quiet end of the hotel and she spends at least ten minutes asking about me before I finally switch on the tape recorder, seeming genuinely interested in who I am and where I come from and so on. In fact, she talks to me in exactly the same chatty informal manner in which she interviews her guests. But then, perhaps it s this quality that marks her apart from other Irish broadcasters she s genuinely interested in other people and what they think. And she s very much herself.
As open as a 24-hour Spar, with Clare McKeon, what you see is definitely what you get.

OLAF TYARANSEN: I understand that you gave birth to Neil at home.
CLARE MCKEON: Yeah. Basically I m very committed to doing things as naturally as possible and if I m going to have a baby, I would have to have a natural birth because that s the way I think. I don t think of pregnancy as an illness. Mind you, some people classify it as an illness. But it was a tricky road to go down because the status quo prevails. People are afraid, you know, particularly to do with medical issues.
And was it a good experience?
It was an incredible experience. It was mind-blowing. I have never ever experienced anything like it. It was very profound. It was a very empowering experience. Just extraordinary because it s a very basic and primitive thing that you re doing. My body took over and it just seemed to know what to do at a very basic level. I think the key thing for women is you must allow your body to do this and, unfortunately, if you go to hospital and once the medical intervention starts then it s very, very difficult. And certainly I would argue that giving birth in hospital would be a lot more painful.
Do you believe that it has any effect on the baby psychologically?
Absolutely. I believe that the birth experience which you have has a huge effect on you.
Have you ever tried rebirthing?
No, Jesus, my birth was something else . . . (laughs). No, but I do believe that. He had an amazing birth. It was candles, total silence and he came out with this amazing look on his face. People say he s a very calm baby. And he shouldn t be because he s with me all the time and I m hysterical at the moment because I ve an awful lot on my plate (laughs). So it was just a wonderful experience and I m very grateful it went so well, because a lot of things can happen. At birth you re very close to death.
Do you mean grateful in a religious sense?
No. I mean, I m very spiritual but I wouldn t adhere to organised religion. I m big into spirituality. I would be into nature. I go on retreats every year and I m into alternative medicine.
What, like homeopathy?
Yeah, and meditation and yoga. I just try to not burn out so quickly and remember to live in the moment, not to be projecting into the future or worrying about the past. The past is gone, the future isn t here, so stay with the moment, you know. I m trying to have more empathy, more understanding of people. I m quite an impatient person but I used to be a lot worse.
What s your attitude towards drug-use?
Well I have to tell you now, I m very anti-drugs. I ve been off the alcohol for a year now because of the baby so maybe I m becoming a bit of a born-again or whatever. But I m very anti-drugs. I m not anti-cannabis though, but I don t take it myself because I m very anti-smoking. But I think that cannabis has some very positive medical benefits. I really, really believe this. And all of our successful drugs actually originate from the plants, so to me cannabis is a natural substance.
My problem is that it seems to me that if you want to smoke cannabis in Dublin then you have to go to the same people who re supplying heroin or ecstasy or whatever. And the whole thing is catastrophic. And I think that people should be able to access cannabis for medical purposes or for relaxation purposes. But things like those E tablets are just poison.
Given the way you feel about the medical establishment, what are your views on abortion?
Em . . . (pauses). I feel that I have to say that the way we handle it in Ireland is just despicable. The fact that we have an Irish woman having an abortion every ten minutes in Britain sickens me. I believe it is a person s choice. I have to say I personally wouldn t have an abortion. But this is a very personal view.
Would you have had the baby if you knew it was going to be handicapped?
Yeah. I just think Down s Syndrome children are quite extraordinary they re so loving and beautiful and I just believe everyone has a gift. And I think that just because we decide someone is handicapped, I don t see it that way. I meet an awful lot of people who aren t handicapped who are extremely dysfunctional and extremely dislikable people who are very unhappy.
You ve always worked in broadcasting haven t you?
Yeah. This is all I ve ever done. Though I actually opened my own business last week. And one of the reasons I decided to do that is because you know when you put all this energy into one area and it s all you ve ever done, sometimes you need to shift out and expand your range. I m a great believer in feeling the fear and just going for it. I like that because I think that you ve got to keep changing. And that s what we re doing in the show. We re trying to surprise people every week. Once they think they have you boxed, then go and do something completely different. I hate stagnancy.
Are you happy with the show at the moment?
Yeah. I mean, we re into our second season now. In my view this would be the most successful thing I ve ever done on television. Some nights we get it wrong. You ve got to take risks, whatever. But I think it s a superb format. I feel very comfortable with it. I think for the most part our guests are open and forthright. I think that the Annie Murphy thing was stunning.
You got some negative press about that didn t you?
Well, actually the only negative thing was on RTE radio funnily enough, giving out about me and the show. I just thought they missed the plot. The bottom line is we got them on. The coup was to get Phyllis and Annie together. No-one had ever done it. No-one had ever thought of doing it. And all I heard was the begrudgery. I just laughed. I just thought loolaas .
Does negative criticism bother you?
Sometimes. But I would be big into people critiquing me and the show. I don t have a problem at all with that. And it has to be said that my reviews are mostly positive. Other broadcasters have been bashed up a lot more than I have. But what I dislike is the standard of criticism in this country. I expect it to be a lot higher.
Is there much jealousy within broadcasting circles?
I suppose. Of course, there s jealousy and envy and back-stabbing. And it s one thing I ve trained myself out of. I think it s very important not to feel jealousy. Because it s a tough business and everybody has a tough time. Having said all that I cried for an hour last Sunday over something that was written about me.
What was that?
It was something in the Sunday Times and I read it and I just cried and cried and cried. And when you ve had a baby you re tired anyway and things come at you with an intensity that they normally wouldn t. It was commenting on my going on a show to talk about homebirths and it was basically saying I was using the baby. I know this sounds funny, but the bottom line is the baby burped on television and your man said he farted, OK. And for some reason I m just outraged that number one he got that wrong, right, and that basically he said that at least the baby had the sense to interrupt his blathering mother.
It just hurt me. It just got to me because the inference was . . . (pauses). I m analysing it now actually and it doesn t seem so bad. But I d had a bad night the night before and I just cried and cried. And there was nastiness in it as well and about me and about the show and there was a slag in it about Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus. It was written by a man. I know that men have difficulty with my slapping it up their arses every fucking opportunity I can get. Because I do. I do believe that men and women are absolutely different and I don t see the harm in reminding them.
Do you think that opportunities for women have improved in the Irish media in recent years?
No, I do not! I think it s appalling. There are very few female managers. All the managers I ve ever dealt with and all my bosses have been men. The only female manager I know of in RTE is Claire Duignan and she s superb. But it s very difficult. And men do look at things in a very different way, you know. If you have babies and are trying to get to meetings on time . . . it s very different for women. And of course the minute women leave and take time out to have babies they miss the boat. In local radio it s a very macho culture, as I ve learnt and as I know.
Women have it tough you know! I m only talking factually. I m just saying these are the facts. And the facts are that women have ended up doing more work and we re still having the babies and I want you to tell me how have men s roles changed? They haven t! And that new man thing is the greatest load of bullshit. Anyway it all goes back to the fact that men are programmed in one way and women are programmed in another way. And the twain shall not meet (laughs).
Did you read the article by Mary Ellen Synon in the Sunday Independent recently, castigating women who expected special treatment from their employers when they wanted time out to have babies?
I did. But I am the example. I m self-employed, so I ve no maternity leave. I was back to work two weeks after having a baby. I asked for no exceptions to be made for me none. I don t expect every other woman to be able to do what I do. But I ll tell you where her argument falls completely flat. If you believe that babies are produced for the good of all society if you take her totally purist capitalistic and individualistic outlook, she s right. But that s not what life s all about. And it s not meant to be like that.
What is it meant to be like?
It s meant to be about caring and sharing and, you know, what really amazes me is when I m going around with a baby, the amount of people that want to help me. And I m seeing another side to people. Having a baby changes your perception. I didn t really think it would. Of course there are new angles for seeing things, but to have a baby and to be with a baby and to do the whole baby thing is a major departure. And so getting back to Mary Ellen of course she s got a point, but she doesn t have children herself, you know (smiles). But I am taking responsibility for this. I m back to work. I d be damned if I wasn t going to be back on my show on time. God knows what would happen. I didn t miss a show.
I ve noticed that the show doesn t have a producer.
No, that s because I would have a very big role in comparison to other presenters. You see I m not a presenter in the normal sense . . . There s lots of TV I won t do. If you said to me Clare, I want you to do a game show next year not in a fit. I m very, very strong about what I will do. I also have very strong views. I m very topic driven. My show is research driven. It has to be. We pride ourselves on getting topics that other shows wouldn t necessarily go to and we re kinda cheeky in our approach as well. So we wouldn t go down the traditional route of getting a topic and having somebody who opposes it. To me, that s just passi and I don t like that type of programming.
Doesn t it make for good TV though?
Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn t. And that s actually an incorrect analysis of what makes good television in my view. A lot of people say conflict, conflict but I don t agree. I ll tell you what makes good TV people telling you their stories from the heart. And in order for people to do that they must trust you and they must be given space. Instead of me getting aggressive with people or making people go on the defensive, I would rather try and understand them and empathise with them. That doesn t mean to say there are not eejits around.
Have you ever lost it with someone on air?
Yeah, I ve got a bit nasty with Noelle Campbell-Sharp recently because she just wouldn t shut up and I basically don t like blatherers because it s boring for the audience. And I turned around and said now I know why everyone dislikes you so much which wasn t a very nice thing to say and that wasn t fair. But she was actually great after the show, she thought it was great. She s a great woman. And it was unfair of me to snap like that.
Is the show definitely coming back for a third season?
Let me put it this way, RTE would like to have it back. Obviously because it s been a huge success for them this year and in a situation where there s a ratings issue with RTE and newspaper coverage issues, you know, we score on all fronts and we bring them in a very valuable audience. Certainly in terms of the Dublin audience, it s an audience RTE wouldn t necessarily have had great access to in the past I m talking about our age group roughly so I m very committed to doing television on the edge. But it s got to be on the edge and we ve got to keep pushing.
Has the arrival of TV3 changed the way things work in RTE?
Yes it has. I think people in RTE were very scared of TV3. As it happens there was nothing to be scared of at all unfortunately, I might add. Yes, I think competition is always very healthy and it keeps people on their toes. You could argue that the revamp of Network 2 would never have taken place if TV3 wasn t in the offing. Certainly, I would never have been able to do what I m doing. So competition is very important.
You ve handled some pretty controversial topics on your show . Do you have to get clearance at a higher level if you re planning on doing something that might be seen as particularly sensitive?
No. I will talk to the series producer and say do you think this is the right idea? I am quite an anxious person in terms of like Am I doing the right thing? From that point of view I will talk to them but it s never a case of me having to submit anything and ask if I can do it.
I have never been prevented from doing any topic. I would have thought this year that they would have put the clamps on a few. But no. I have to be fair, they haven t. But I have to say there s a new regime in RTE and they re really into encouraging us to make more interesting television. For instance, when we did the show with the relatives of missing people RTE certainly knew that some of the relatives were going to be critical of the police and it wasn t a problem. In fact, they saw this as a way of balancing the situation. And I thought what was very interesting about that show was that most of what you see and read about missing people and crime in this country is positive about the police. And it would make you wonder, wouldn t it?
Not really! It s practically illegal to criticise the police in this country!
You know, I d have to say I agree with you. A lot of people commented on that show. I suppose what s dangerous about me is that there isn t a topic I wouldn t touch. I have no fear. No-one has any hold over me. I am my own person.
You re not worried that the police might have taken offence?
No, but hey, next time I m stopped on the Stillorgan dual-carriageway . . . (laughs). I ve never had any dealings with the police, but the relatives came on and they re straight up, those people. They re telling it the way it is. And can I also point out that those people have been on other programmes and they haven t been allowed to talk about that stuff. But on our show, unless you re going to libel someone, anything goes. Anything goes.
Would you consider bringing in a live audience for the show?
No, they re more bleeding trouble than they re worth. If they re going to be there, use them. Do you know what I mean? It s the intimacy. A lot of the shows that we ve done, if you d put those guests in front of an audience they d just flip. Apart from me flipping! And also I don t like the way audiences are shot, either. I m not a great one for warming them up. I m not into that. I just want to get down and talk and listen and blah, blah, blah. And get to the point.
You ve done a number of shows about relationships between men and women . . .
Yes it would be one of our main topics. It s of huge interest to people and when you think about it, it s really the stuff of 90s chat shows and I think that there s so many different permutations and combinations now in relationships people with second families, step-children, divorced people, separated people. Sure we can t get enough of it because we re fascinated by the way other people live.
How about sex?
(Laughs) We did this show about the sex business and I have to tell you, I thought this is gonna be pervy city here and I m not going to give these people an easy time . And I went into the room and suddenly picked up that two of our guests were gay. They were like (adopts camp voice) Clare, we watch you every week and the minute I heard them I was going oh my God they re great! They were really queeny. And I thought I can t hate these two what am I gonna do? We re going on a show to talk about the sex business and they re meant to be perverts and they re not! What am I going to do? I m going to look like a pervert myself when I go in with them!
So we go on air and one of the guys turns around and says he runs a sex shop and sauna it was a very matter of fact show about how much money is made in the sex business in Dublin. And he says I run a sauna and there s holes in the wall . And I said why are there holes in the wall? and he says they re called glory-holes and our clients put their penises through the holes . I was just like I beg your pardon? I said why would they do that? And he said sometimes the clients don t want to see the other person . But the way he said it was so matter of fact, it was hilarious! And I ll tell you most people in Ireland hadn t heard of glory holes before, but they ve certainly heard about them now!
Who do you think should get the Late Late Show?
Well, if you watch the coverage, to be honest with you, RTE don t know what they want to do. And that s a fact. No decisions are going to be made until Gay is off the TV set. I think it s very difficult. I personally think that there can t be another Gay Byrne. There can t be another Late Late Show and I think that what should be done is a movie should be put on on Friday night and then if they want a late night chat show have one for about an hour.
Which broadcasters do you particularly admire?
Well, it might sound clichid but Oprah Winfrey is out there on her own. In terms of instinct, in terms of her ability to deal with people. She s just out on her own. She s just brilliant. I think Gerry Ryan is great as well. He s had a hard time though. But he s great on radio. In terms of style and delivery and understanding radio audiences he s stunning.
What do you think of his new TV show?
I think his television show is really good. I know the critics have bashed it over the head. But they re missing the point. It s an entertaining show. It s bringing in several hundred thousand a week. It s a phenomenal success. It s brilliantly produced and I think Gerry s great in it. I really think Gerry . . . he s kind of wild. There s a wildness there. Now, I wouldn t go in for his forced sense of humour at all times, I m sorry. But I think he s got a great voice and a great way with people.
What s your goal in life?
(Pauses) Em, I suppose my goal in life is to try to be together, to try to be happy and to try to do the best work I can. That s about it really. n