Tuesday, July 26. 2.45pm.

John Halligan pauses for a breath. We're halfway through what will transpire to be the most controversial political interview of the year to date in Ireland.
Already, the government Minister has spoken eloquently on some of the most contentious - and until recently taboo - issues of our time, including abortion, Repealing the 8th, euthanasia, sex, religion, prostitution and the legalisation and/or decriminalisation of drugs.

In truth, the Waterford TD is a breath of fresh air. He wears his heart on his sleeve. He isn't afraid to call a spade a spade and he couldn't give a monkey's uncle about upsetting people. It is far more important, he believes, to get them thinking ¬- and talking.
And that is exactly what has happened. Since we published the first part of our interview with him last Thursday - it's in the current issue of Hot Press, with Lisa Hannigan on the cover - it has eaten up the column inches. You name the newspaper - and what the Minister had to say in the interview has been covered not once, but twice - and in some cases more: the Irish Daily Mail, the Irish Times, the Examiner, the Irish Independent, the Irish Mail on Sunday, the Evening Herald, the Irish Mirror, the Irish Sun, the Sunday Business Post and the UK Times all had articles about what John Halligan said in Hot Press. It was all over the internet. There was coverage on virtually every radio station.
And here's the best bit: while a lot of what has been written in response may have been knee-jerk stuff, amid all of that, you can still discern that radical ideas are being discussed in a serious way. It is confirmation that the Minister's approach works: by nailing his colours to the mast, he has made rational, progressive debate that much more feasible.

But that is now. Back to then...

As he takes a quick breather, Halligan picks up a picture of Ché Guevara, which is beside him in his family home and shows it to me. It was, he says, a present brought back from Cuba. He then tells me about one of the things that pleases him most about the new Programme for Government, which the Independent Alliance hammered out with Fine Gael.
"People don't realise it," he says, "that we were able to get into the Programme for Government, the recognition of a Palestinian state, insisted on by Finian McGrath and myself."
Our conversation soon starts to shift towards global politics. Again, the 61-year-old doesn't shirk from giving his forthright views - even if it does mean potentially rocking the boat...

Jason O'Toole: Do you think we need to re-examine the issue of US military flights using Shannon?
John Halligan: They shouldn't be using it at all. I mean, is there somebody serious telling me there's not munitions on board? We don't know. We're not allowed to get on the planes. We're a contributing factor, to a degree, to innocent people being killed in Afghanistan, Iraq and maybe Syria - we don't know because we have no idea if munitions are being carried on those planes.

Do you feel it makes a mockery of our so-called neutrality?
Of course it does. I personally don't think that military personnel, armed, should be going out to fight a conflict and stopping in our country. We're not at war with Afghanistan. We're not at war with Iraq. We're not at war with Syria. We may not agree with the regimes. We may not agree with the politics. But are we not complicit if we allow soldiers, who say they are at war with them, stop in our country and then go out and fight? It's like two countries at war with one another, bombing the goddamn daylights out of one another and a country in the middle saying, 'But you can land your planes here! And you can refuel here and go and bomb him'. Sure, we're helping that!

So why does the government turn a blind eye?
This is because it's the Americans. We're afraid of the goddamn Americans - that's what it is! Is there someone seriously telling me no munitions have been carried in any of these planes? Sure, this is what we're being told: 'Oh, they're only carrying soldiers'. They're not - they're carrying munitions. You know that and I know that. And all of these planes should be searched.

So you'd support a ban on US flights coming through Ireland, as long as there is a suspicion that they might be involved in military activity?
Total ban. Absolutely. If I had my way, I wouldn't let them land there at all.

Honestly, tell us what you really think about Donald Trump?
I think he's nuts! I think he's homophobic. I think he's racist. I think he's extreme right wing. I think he's a clown. I think he's no knowledge of foreign affairs. And, I think, he's dangerous.

Do you think he could actually become President?
Yes, he could. I don't think he will - but he could because his thoughts and ideals are the thoughts and ideals, unfortunately, of a substantial number of Americans. You can see the way American society, to a certain degree, is warped - where you're allowed buy semi-automatics in a supermarket and you're allowed, in Texas, to walk around with a gun in a holster, as though it's Tombstone territory with Wyatt Earp! Trump is dangerous. I think he's absolutely dangerous. I don't have much truck with Clinton either, mind you.

America is certainly a different place politically...
I think Bernie Sanders is right: there's too many people in America disenfranchised - like Ireland. I mean, on middle incomes in America, you're on the line of being in poverty. There's extremities in America that are not acceptable and should not be acceptable in any just society. Trump's talking about building a goddamn wall all the way, to stop Mexicans coming through! I was listening to a debate with some guy on RTÉ One radio during the week saying, 'Ah, sure, they have a wall in Palestine'. That was his answer: the way they treat the Palestinians! So, I think this guy Trump is dangerous. I really think he is. He fires from the hip - and I think that's not what world politics is about. If I was walking around America now and there were kids in America not registered, I'd say, 'Get registered quickly for the sake of your country and the sake of the world - and vote against this asshole'.

If he became President and he came here on a visit, as a Minister you could be in a position where you'd have to shake his hand.
No, I wouldn't shake his hand. Or there would be choices: I'd meet him, tell him what I think of him, or not meet him at all. I'd have to think about that. I'd probably want to him meet him and tell him what I think of him - without shaking his hand.

Looking at the multinational companies based here - like Facebook, Google, YouTube, Apple and so on - do you think they pay enough tax in Ireland?
Of course they don't. This is an old argument at this stage here. We don't even know if the 12 percent corporate tax is paid. Probably not. They reckon about 4½ percent to 6 percent.

Do you find that disillusioning?
We were talking earlier, about how people become disfranchised - and how kids don't want to vote, and how they see that politics is not related to them because they see greed, they see unfairness. They see their parents are struggling, paying their tax and PRSI and coming home with low incomes. And then they hear of these multi-nationals who make huge profits in Ireland and try to find ways of not paying reasonable tax.

What steps should be taken to make them pay their fair share of tax?
We should be doing everything we can, whatever legislation we need to bring in. And if some of these companies want to say, 'Ah, we'll leave then!' So, what are we going to do? Are we going to be threatened by people who will say, 'We don't agree with your legislation or your system here in Ireland?'

You sound very passionate about it...
We don't have any problem with our kids leaving the country because they can't earn enough money to pay tax - because they can't get a job. They can go to Australia or New Zealand or England or wherever they want to go - but when we get some companies or some of the rich and the elite, 'Will you pay a little bit more tax to help out this State?' 'Ah, no, we'll leave'. 'Oh, Jesus! Don't pay it then. Stay here'. People have said that to me. Kids on apprentice schemes and kids just starting up and they're wondering, 'Am I going to have a fair crack? I know I have to pay tax - and we all have to pay tax - but is the guy that's earning €500,000 a year or a €1million a year, is he going to pay tax relative to what I'm paying?' I think that's only reasonable - and we don't have that in Ireland at present.

Staying on the subject of people being disfranchised: has the mistreatment of young people in recent years by the political establishment in Ireland not been a disgrace?
A total and other disgrace, in many ways. We allowed too many of our young people to become disenfranchised. We are talking about a whole array of young people who are not voting, not engaging with the political system. Now, I think that suits governments in power, because the natural instinctive reaction of somebody that's young, when they first vote is to rebel - like I did when I was young and you probably did too. We all wanted a perfect society, a utopia - and we would get that through being a Ché Guevara-ist.

So you agree that young people have been alienated by the establishment...
I think we've alienated them completely. They see politicians as being corrupt; they see them as being indecisive; the perception is that they (politicians) are there to get what they can get for themselves - which is not the case with many politicians, on the left and on the right. There are some very good and honourable politicians in the Dáil. But I do think that the perception with young people is that, 'You've abandoned us'. I meet young people in schools: 'How did you allow this to happen?' How did I? Even though I might have only been a councillor at the time. How did we allow so many people to be disenfranchised? To lose their homes? The suicide rate? The rate of alcohol abuse? The rate of drug abuse? The sexual abuse of young people? How did we allow all of that to happen?

Do you believe the political system is to blame for all these problems?
This is the responsibility of the political system - not anybody else. Blame the Christian Brothers, rightly so. Blame this group. Blame that group. But it's the political system that is ultimately responsible for the quality of life in this State and so you have to blame the political system - there is no way out of that. We're responsible for it. We're the people in politics: our task is to make sure that people in this country have a good quality of life. And we have, down through the years, failed hundreds of thousands of people. You have to ask yourself: why do we have one of the highest suicide rates in the world? Why do we have one of the highest rates of abuse of alcohol, and abuse of drugs? What went wrong? Do we not know what was going to happen in Dublin? Were they not being told by Tony Gregory? I remember Tomás Mac Giolla - I'd love you to quote this - 20 or 30 years ago saying, 'You're facing catastrophe in Dublin on drugs. Gang warfare will result'.

It's certainly happening now...
He saw all these kids coming up. We abandoned them. We left them. We're paying the price for it. But in case people want to keep passing the buck - at the end of the day, there's 158 politicians in the Dáil and we're responsible for everybody in this State, from the time they're born to the time they die. And we have to try and put right the mistakes that were made.

What needs to be done to entice young people to get involved in politics?
I think the days of extreme right or extreme left are gone - and should be gone out of politics. I think that's not the way forward. We have to have a moderate, modern view of politics. If we want to attract young, articulate, conscientious people into politics, they have to be able to see that we can work without being extremist. And you've seen extremist views from the Right and the Left - particularly from the Right on the abortion issue. The hassles that I came under: threatened that there was a bomb under my car; people putting stuff into my letterbox; abusing me on the street - and all that sort of thing. I don't think people want that.

Is it not bad for the government that people know that Enda Kenny is winding down now as leader of Fine Gael?
I suppose if you lose an election, and if you lose a lot of seats, you're in trouble. And I think he probably felt that himself. I think he probably feels that. I think if Brexit hadn't come along he might've stepped aside. To be fair to him, he's well-known in Europe. This is a crucial stage for Ireland, and a crucial time for Europe. So, I suppose he wants to see that out. And he'll make his decision on that. I always found him a pleasant guy, to be honest with you. Any time I've spoken to him, he's been pleasant to me. But there's an inevitability, as you know, about this. There's an always an end-game in politics. Sooner or later, we'll all have to go out. We'll either be put out or we'll resign, or we'll die - but we'll be out of politics one way or another. You just have to set your mind on that - there's a time to go. And when you've had enough, or when you feel people have had enough of you, well, just go - and that's it.

What's your take on Brexit?
I think that England have made a mistake. I was in England speaking to the Irish community in London at a number of meetings there on Brexit. I was at pains to add that I wasn't coming as a member of the government telling them how to vote, but I was just saying how it might affect Ireland. I think there will be a price to pay for England, because if there's not a price to pay for England what will happen is that those who are opposed to Europe will say, in about six months time or a year's time, 'Oh, look at England? They're fine. Their economy is booming, nothing has happened. Let's get out of Europe!' Now, I don't have an awful lot of time for Europe and I think the European Commission is undemocratic, the European Central Bank is undemocratic - but I still think we're better working together.

What price will the UK pay?
I think it's inevitable that Britain will lose competitiveness. There's no doubt about that and I think they will lose some financial reserves in the sense of people investing into the country. But we really don't know. No economist yet has been able to say: 'This is exactly what's going to happen', when England make their invocation of Article 50, that they're going to leave.

Would you welcome financial services companies and banks to Ireland, if they need a new base within the context of Brexit?
Yes. I'll give you an example: I deal with R and D, Research and Development, in my department. There's 9,000 scientists in England that, I think, will lose all their funding from Europe, which will lose jobs and so on. We now have a position that maybe we can get good scientists here, bring them in with us. I don't know how that will work. But we still get substantial funding from Europe for science projects - for the Science Foundation of Ireland and so on - and we contribute, for instance, to the European Space Agency, as one of 50 countries. So, I think that, in six months or a year, financial investors may say, 'Ah! It's a bit risky investing there (in the UK). We don't know what's going to happen. What's the nearest country that would be close to Europe?' Ireland. And we do have good financial services here. So, it could happen and I think it will.

Looking back at the start of your own political career, why did you join the Workers Party?
I was a little more left of the Labour Party with my ideals and thoughts. I found myself drifting to the Workers' Party, which was (then called) Sinn Féin The Workers' Party. And their office was just up the hill from where I lived in Rice Park, College Road in Waterford. What happened was very simple: an elderly lady living around the corner came over to the house and she happened to be speaking to my mum and dad at the time about her pension - she was having difficulty with it. I wanted to help and I remember my grandmother saying to me, 'Well, look, up the top of the hill there: the Officials are up there'. They were known as Official Sinn Féin - you know the split between them and Provisional Sinn Féin? So, I went up there and they sorted it for me. I was only a kid, well, a young adult, about 19 years of age. And that was it. I became involved in politics at the age of 19 years, up to now at 61.

Did you ever consider joining the IRA?
I don't agree with violence. I liked the idea of the Official Republican movement, or as it was known, Sinn Féin The Workers' Party. I liked their ideals of a socialist republic - not so much a nationalist republic, which was espoused, if you like, by Provisional Sinn Féin, and probably still is today. I mean, if you look at what's happened today in Northern Ireland: we don't have one acre of land attached to the 26 counties. We haven't succeeded in uniting a Protestant working class or Catholic working class. There's still a divide in education there. At the costs of thousands of deaths and thousands of people being maimed - and I don't think that's what James Connelly or the Republican movement initially set out to achieve. I think the ideal of Connelly was to unite the working class not kill them - which the INLA and the Provisionals did, in their attempt to create a unified Ireland, which has absolutely failed. As did Loyalist terrorist groups on their side.

But would you not look back at that time and think: there were people in the Workers' Party who might have had blood on their hands?
You have to remember that the Workers' Party came under wicked attack, personal attack and violent attack in Northern Ireland. The RUC weren't there to defend them, nor were the British army because they saw the Workers' Party as a great threat, in the sense that they were trying to have a socialist republic, which is absolutely opposed to what capitalism is all about. So I think they saw the Workers' Party as a greater threat than the Provisionals. So, they allowed members of the Workers' Party to be murdered. Many of them were murdered, shot. There was a pogrom in the '70s where, I think, in one weekend many of them were shot. So, did they defend themselves, the Officials? They did, yes. It would be farcical to deny that they did. And, I think, if they hadn't at the time, the chances are that Sinn Féin The Workers' Party might have been wiped out. It's regretful, but...

But do they have blood on their hands?
Have they blood on their hands? I really don't know about that. I genuinely don't know anything about any armed group or gang that was in operation. I never met any of them and that's being honest with you. I don't agree with violence. I think that violence seldom works. It may work for a short period of time, but inevitably people have to sit down and talk and iron out differences - and in conflicts all over the world, that's what's happened.

You were heavily involved in the Workers' Party, which was, or is, a socialist party. Do you still unashamedly consider yourself a socialist?
I do. A lot depends on what the definition of socialism is. I always put it down as justice and fair play. I know that sounds simplistic. The difference I see, with me and other people who might call themselves socialists, is that (I see that) we'll never be able to get rid of the capitalist system; I don't think you'll be able to abandon a capitalist system.

So how can the capitalist system be shaken up?
What we need to do is get a socialist ethic within the capitalist system. Let's be honest about it, there are friends of mine who are capitalists and business people - who are good people, decent people who give good employment and don't exploit their workers. Now, do we want to overthrow everything because we declare something capitalist that we overthrow it? I think the best way forward for socialism is to work for a better system than we have at present. It's not working at present - you see greed and avarice throughout the world, where a small percentage own all of the wealth. The same applies here in Ireland. I actually believe that the way forward is a socialist alternative. We haven't seen a socialist alternative yet. You can't say that the Russian system was socialist or the Communist Block countries were socialists. We haven't seen it.

Why not?
We haven't been given the opportunity, because the problem with the Left, as you'll probably agree with me, is that we tend to divide amongst ourselves - in Ireland and across Europe. I think that suits the right-wing parties, it suits the Conservatives and it certainly suits the greedy capitalist system, if you have a divided socialist ethic, which we have at present. It's not right to think that you'd have 10 or 12 different parties in Ireland saying they're socialists - yet they can't work together or come together to form a block and maybe form a united socialist party. Ok, Joe Higgins has a socialist party - but we're one of the few countries in Europe where we don't have a large Socialist party, where we don't have an alternative for people to go to. I think that's regretful in the history of politics in Ireland.

There has always been a lot of enmity and bitterness on the left - so give us your honest view of the Trotsky-ist guys in the Dáil: Richard Boyd Barrett, Brid Smith and so on. Are they not the auld enemy for you?
No, they are not actually. I suppose people think I'm a moderate! But if you look at some of my views on abortion, on the right to die and different issues I've spoken on in the Dáil, and my attitude towards the American political system - I'd be further Left than Richard Boyd Barrett and Clare Daly on some issues! But I would have to say this - and I don't mind saying it - some of the best performers I've come across in the Dáil would be Clare Daly and Richard Boyd Barrett. And they still are to me: intelligent, eloquent, articulate, know their stuff - and the good thing about them is they believe in what they're about. What they say they mean - and I think that's very important and it's worthwhile in politics if you've got people like that.

What do you think now of the links the Workers Party had with North Korea?
One of the things I would say about this, and I would be upfront and honest about this again: the party had a policy - and I thought it was a pretty good policy - that countries that were confrontational with the West, the best way to deal with them was to build up relationships with them. Now, isn't it very interesting, with North Korea, for instance, they would come over here and learn Irish dancing; people from Ireland would go over there. So, through Sean Garland and Tomás Mac Giolla we built up pretty strong contacts with North Korea.

But it didn't sit well with many people...
Now, the argument was: 'Oh, sure they're a pariah state and I don't agree with yer man, the dictatorship, or the guy before that, or the guy before that. They're off their heads' - no doubt about that. But we had contacts that could have been nurtured. We had contacts with Russia. We had contacts with Romania. I'd been in the Workers' Party 28 to 30 years and I don't recall anyone in the Workers' Party saying that North Korea is a great country, that Kim Jong-il was a great leader, that King Jong junior was a great leader! Not the case.

But I bet nobody from the Workers' Party had the balls to say it to their faces...
Any time they did meet them - and I know this, I can tell you this - they always spoke to them about, 'Look, you have to be less confrontational. You have to be able to deal with the West, whether you agree with them or not'. We're on record of meeting these countries and saying, 'You can't treat your people the way you're treating them'.

But didn't North Korea fund the Workers' Party?
There is this idea that we were getting money off North Korea! We were all struggling for money in the Workers' Party. Now, unless you know something I don't know - unless they were keeping something from me - we were always struggling for money. I don't know if they were getting money - I don't think that's the case at all. But I think they were right to keep contacts with North Korea and they were right to keep contact with Russia at the time, and Romania, and all of these countries - in spite of the fact that they were dictatorships. I mean, we're on record of meeting these countries and saying, 'You can't treat your people the way you're treating them. You have to have a democratic view. And step forward democratically'. But some of the press took the view, 'Oh, it's the Official IRA. They're trying to get money out of Korea and Russia'. And not one iota of it has been proven.

There was also unfounded claims that Sean Garland was part of North Korea's so-called super dollar forgery scam...
Sean Garland was taken to court and the case was thrown out on two occasions where they had not a scrap of evidence, the FBI. And I think this was an attempt, at the time, when you see the conflict between America and (North) Korea, that they had an opportunity, 'Oh, look! We've somebody here trying to break the American economy. Dollars printed in Korea'. So, I think it suited them. It was bunged out of the court. Thrown out on its head. And I was in court at the time when it happened.

Do you think the West should've used the Workers' Party to help broker a deal with North Korea?
Isn't it very funny: here you have a huge big issue now with North Korea and America and actually there's a fella called Sean Garland, who had great contacts with North Korea. You could've picked worse people in the last few years to try and bridge the gap between the West and North Korea. I can tell you this, because I think you're an intelligent guy and as politically astute as I am: we're going to end up talking to them anyway, somehow or another - unless we want to enter into a nuclear confrontation with them, or a nuclear war, which nobody wants. So, we have talk to him. It's like Northern Ireland - we had to talk. It's like conflicts all over the world. Eventually the Israelis will have to deal with the Palestinians.

You left the Workers' Party over a well-publicised difference of opinion on bin service charges. Do you have regrets about it?
It was deeply unsettling for me, because I've great friends in the Workers' Party. All my life had been dedicated to them. I had been 28 years in the Workers' Party. It was hard for me to do it. Have I regrets about leaving them? I have. I think they could've been a bit more progressive on budgets around the country (at county council level) and so on - and I think we'd be in a position today where maybe they might have a couple of TDs. I might have been elected as a TD for the Workers' Party! I don't know.

I'm curious to know who's your favourite broadcaster?
Broadcaster? Jesus! It's hard one to say now. I've been on with a load of them now. Sean O'Rourke is pretty incisive. He's good. Is there anybody else there? I like Olivia O'Leary. Olivia O'Leary was down in the house with me during the election. She went around with me when I was canvassing. I think she's pretty good and incisive and straightforward. I like the two of them.

Are you a Ryan Turbidy or a Miriam O'Callaghan man?
I'd say Miriam O'Callaghan. I've been interviewed by her and she's pretty good. She does a good job on Prime Time.

Monday August 8. 6pm.
The Minister has had a busy day, doing his official Ministerial duties and generally running around like a kid a third of his age. But he is still up for a laugh, when Hot Press calls by arrangement. He has been on the front pages and in the news since the magazine hit the streets last Thursday. Before going to press with the second part, we thought we'd check in, and see how he has been bearing up, under the intense media scrutiny...
Everybody who read the first part of your Hot Press interview says that one thing that shines through is your sense of humour.
I joke about everything.

Can you tell a gag?
I can.

Can you give us a joke?
This one's a bit long now. This is a joke that's for the intellectuals. In a psychiatric ward, the psychiatrist was passing the cell. And the guy in the cell said, 'Come in. I want to show you something. I've made a great discovery'. The psychiatrist went in and yer man had a matchbox on the counter. So, he opened the matchbox and there was a spider in the matchbox. So, your man says, 'What's the discovery?' 'Watch, he said'. So, he put the spider on the table. He said, 'Spider walk'. So, the spider walked. He pulled a leg off the spider and he said, 'Spider walk'. So, the spider walked. So, he pulled another leg off the spider and the spider walked. There was only one leg on the spider and he said, 'Walk'. So, the spider was dragging himself and he walked. So, he pulled out the last leg off the spider and he said, 'Spider walk'. So, the spider couldn't walk. 'You see what I've discovered?' he said. 'Spiders without legs are deaf!' (Laughs)

You're getting more publicity these days than Donald Trump!
Ah, brilliant (laughs)! But generally speaking it's been good. I'm delighted with it. I don't care anyway.

You stand over everything you told me?
Absolutely, yeah.

Did you get into hot water with your partner Elaine, for being so frank about your sex life?
I probably should've been a little bit more discreet (laughs)! But, look, I was asked a straight question and I gave a straight answer.

Did she give you a bit of an earful?
No, she didn't really. She just would've preferred if I hadn't said anything on it (laughs)!

What was your daughters' reaction?
They were okay. They would've preferred if I hadn't said anything on it too. But, look, if I'm asked a straight question I tend to answer it.

Did you read the piece by John Drennan in the Irish Mail on Sunday? He basically said there's tension now within the government over your Hot Press interview and that Fine Gael, and even members of the Independence Alliance, are frustrated and pissed off with you over a lot of the stuff you said?
(Laughs) Well, sorry, I don't conform! I speak my mind on issues.

So, nobody from government has raised this with you?
Absolutely not. I haven't been speaking to anybody because of the holidays, but I have not, no. And generally speaking, the public have been very good and very supportive of me for speaking my mind. At least I said what's on my mind. I wasn't holding back and that it's.

So, no regrets?
No. Sure, what have I got to regret?

You still stand over your controversial views about prostitution?
I think it should be regulated by the government, there's no doubt about that. Men should not be prosecuted. To bring in legislation like that, we will not be able to enact that legislation. How are the Guards going to do it? What are they going to do? Are they going to stand outside brothels and question every man they think is going in there? I'd love you to print this: would we not be better placed, if we had extra Garda resources, to be sending them to the airport and to the seaports to try and stop women being trafficked into prostitution? That's what I would be doing with the resourcing.

So you think policing it is next-to-impossible...
The issue is this: how are they going to do this? How are they going to prove that a man is going to into a brothel. First of all, they're going to have to find brothels. Are they hotels? Are they apartments? Where are they? Are they going to put Gardaí outside these every night or on weekends? Would that not be a waste of valuable Garda resources? Would we not be better off to try to educate women who might not want to go into prostitution, or deal with pimps who force women into prostitution?
There are women who choose to go into prostitution, who are happy to go into prostitution. I've met some of Turn On The Blue Light. They think they should be allowed to organise, they should be able to pay tax and PRSI. If someone asked me, 'How would they monitor the brothels?' For instance, wouldn't there be safety and security if there were cameras there? That might restrict men from going it - but a woman in there is not going to be violated or beaten up. Would we not be better off doing that?

What's your reaction to the prevalence of this supposed 'gay culture' in the seminary in Maynooth?
Here's my view: I don't think anybody should be forced into celibacy. I think that day is gone. It's unrealistic and unnatural to have 20, 30 or 40 men together - or 20, 30 or 40 women together - and expect them not to have, if you like, some sort of sexual appetite or have feelings for sexuality. Being an atheist, I really don't care whether there's priests or not, or bishops or not - but if there are, they certainly should be allowed to marry. It's gone beyond the position where any organisation should be expecting people to be celibate. It's the most natural thing in the world to fall in love - whether a woman with a woman, or a woman with a man, or man with a man. No organisation should be prohibiting any of their people from doing that. And I think that's one of the problems.

What do you think of the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin taking his students out of Maynooth and sending them over to Rome to get them away from this culture?
Why would they do that? They probably need to come out and tell the people why they've done that. Are they not happy with their own seminary here in Ireland, that they would send them to Rome? I don't want to make a comment because I don't know what's going on there now, but I think it's very telling.

What do you feel about the fact that gay marriage is still not legal in Northern Ireland?
I think it's disgraceful - absolutely appalling. Some Unionists, not all, are still sort of, if you like, almost - almost - behaving like they were before the conflict! I think it's religion again. Here's the thing. I don't understand what is wrong with a man falling in love with a man or a woman falling in love with a woman. Isn't it better that they would be in love with one another than killing one another, or fighting one another, or being unhappy because they can't be in love with one another? Who decided that it should only be between a man and a woman to be able to fall in love? Why can it not be two men or two women? They're just out of step. I think there's an inevitability about that: I think gay marriage will come about in Northern Ireland.

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