Actually, you'd better leave that out. That's off the record!

When you spot the big blue Virgin Mary statue by the front door, there’s no doubt that you’ve arrived at the correct address.

“Come on in!” says Sinéad O’Connor, greeting your hotpress reporter with a friendly peck on the cheek. “Shane’s running late, but he should be here in a little while.”
Well, there’s a surprise! It’s midday of the 9th of May, and Shane MacGowan is running late. Actually, given Mr. MacGowan’s notoriously decadent lifestyle, it’s far more likely that he’s staggering late.
“No, no,” Sinéad laughs. “Victoria just rang from the cab. They’re definitely on their way.”
Sinéad’s Dublin home (one of them, anyway; she’s due to move into a new place shortly) is bright, spacious and luxurious – all wooden floorboards, Moroccan rugs and high ceilings. The 40-year-old singer, still beautiful after all these years, leads us into her living room and then immediately disappears off to do a quick phone interview with an American paper. Her new double album Theology is being released in six weeks time, but promotional duties have already begun in earnest.
Which is essentially why we’re here. Today’s cunning plan is that Shane will conduct the hotpress interview with Sinéad, and I’m to be the referee between Irish rock’s most notorious son and controversial daughter. I have my doubts about how this is going to work out, but, hey, it’s so crazy it just might work.
While Sinéad does her interview, I assist photographer Mick Quinn in rearranging her furniture for the photo shoot. There are framed images and statuettes of the Blessed Virgin everywhere, and her bookshelf is stuffed full of well-thumbed religious tomes.
Her Mary fixation is nothing new. Some years back she played a chain-smoking Mother of Christ in Neil Jordan’s movie of Pat McCabe’s The Butcher Boy. When she was ordained by the breakaway Latin Tridentine Church in 1999, she took the name Mother Bernadette Mary.
The Mary thing even seems to extend to her viewing material. There’s a DVD copy of There’s Something About Mary lying in front of a massive flatscreen TV.
Sadly, her fixation only goes so far. I’d murder a Bloody Mary but, as a non-drinker, Sinéad doesn’t have any alcohol in the house. Her charming publicist Tara offers tea or coffee instead.
Fifteen minutes later, Shane still hasn’t arrived, but Sinead’s phone interview is done. Apparently it went a lot better than the last one she did. “I had this Italian bitch giving out to me and telling me where I was going wrong in my life,” she laughs. “I’d never even met this person. The fuckin’ cheek of her!”
She appears to be in pretty good form. We start to chat about the album – the same 11 songs recorded in separate sessions in Dublin (acoustically) and London (full band) – but realising that we’re straying into interview territory, decide to hold off until Shane arrives.
Instead, she talks about her brother Joe’s latest novel Redemption Falls. “I’m only a few chapters in, but I can’t believe how brilliant it is,” she laughs. “I’m really proud of him. I’ve been plugging it in all my interviews. It’s funny – reading it, I kinda forget that it’s my own brother who’s written it.”
Soon afterwards, Shane arrives with bubbly fiancée Victoria Clark in tow. Attired in a new – or at least unslept-in – blue suit, he looks healthier than he has in years. Having said that, he’s brought two carrier bags full of liquid supplies (a couple of bottle of spirits and a case of white wine).
“I told him that he wouldn’t need all that booze,” Victoria announces, “but then he said Olaf was going to be here!”
Tara fetches some ice and glasses, and Shane pours me a generous quadruple vodka.
“D’ya wanna mixer wiv that?” he asks.
“What do you have?”
He holds up a bottle of gin and sniggers.
“Thanks Shane, but I prefer not to mix my vodka with gin. At least, not before lunchtime.”
Shane lets out one of his trademark gas-escaping laughs: “KERSSHHHSSSHHHH!!!!”
Victoria insists that her husband-to-be shows us all his new engagement ring. A fitting rock for a rock star, it’s a purple bauble larger than a witch’s boil. “It’s even bigger than mine!” she laughs.
When I suggest that maybe Sinéad could be the priestess who marries them, Victoria says, “That’s a great idea! You can if you want!”
Sinéad is totally agreeable, but nothing is confirmed.
The photo-shoot takes about twenty minutes and is enjoyably chaotic. Midway through, Jake – Sinéad’s 20-year-old son – pops in to say hello. His arm is in a cast.
“How’d that happen to you?” Shane enquires.
“I was masturbating,” Jake replies, deadpan. This prompts another loud, “KERSSHHHSSSHHH!” [for the record, it was actually a rollerblading incident].
Once the shoot is finished, we all tiptoe quietly down the stairs to a small basement back room to do the interview (apparently, the new baby is asleep).
Sadly, despite the fact that everybody present has posed naked at some stage in their careers, Sinéad outright rejects Shane’s suggestion that we should all disrobe for the interview, a la Dave Fanning and U2.
“No – fuck off!” she laughs. “Like... fuck off!”
There’s a surprisingly heavy stone elephant on the table (Sinéad challenged us to lift it), but hopefully none in the corner. In fact, there’s a harp in the corner.
There’s also a painting of His Holiness Bob Marley on the wall, to which due homage is paid throughout proceedings.

SINÉAD: Alright, so how’s this gonna work?
OLAF: Well, I guess Shane is going to ask the questions, I’ll record the whole thing, and perhaps throw in a comment or question every now and then.
SHANE: Right... Anyone wanna drink? [Unscrews bottle].
OLAF: I think we should kick off by raising our glasses to Sinéad. Congratulations! The new album’s terrific.
[Glasses and teacups are held aloft].
SINÉAD: Thank you very much.
SHANE: Yeah, I think it’s a brilliant album. It reminded me a lot of Astral Weeks.
VICTORIA: Tell her what you said about the fear this morning.
SHANE: Oh yeah. Well, I was up pretty late and suddenly, for the first fucking time in many, many years, I started thinking that I might die, ya know worra mean. I’m likely to die one day – KERRSSSHHHSSSHHH! I was on the jacks, actually – KERSSHHHSSHHHHH! And then, anyway... I had a listen to your album, and it genuinely made me feel better. Em... I presume you did the Dublin sessions first, yeah?
SINÉAD: Well, I started recording the Dublin ones first, but they overlapped – and I wound up recording them both at the same time. We had three songs of the acoustic one done, and then we started the London one. So I was running between the two places. But the musicians in Dublin didn’t know about the London sessions and I never let the London ones listen to the other one either, because I didn’t want them to be influenced by each other. So that was a funny one. I had to lie my way through the Irish sessions.
OLAF: So was it the plan all along to do a double album?
SINÉAD: No, it was an accident. At first, it was just gonna be the acoustic album. And then what happened with the guy, RonTom, who produced the London album was he asked me to come over to make some demos with him. So I said, ‘Well, I’ll go just to see how we get on working together’. But the only songs I had were the ones for Theology. So we demoed those, but my plan was really just to see if I could work on a future album with this guy.
But when he found out that that was the plan, he burst into tears and literally begged me to let him make the album. So in the end, I just said, ‘Fuck it, let’s do it.’
SHANE: RonTom? Is that just one guy or is it two?
SINÉAD: Yeah, he’s just one guy.
SHANE: Who else has he produced?
SINÉAD: He used to produce people like the Sugababes and Gabriellet. And he was a DJ for a while. He’s a lovely, lovely guy. He’s very like John Reynolds actually – Jake’s dad.
SHANE: Does John play drums on this album?
SINÉAD: On this album? He played at the show [in Dublin Castle] the other day. Oh, and he did play on one track. He’s on the first song, ‘Something Beautiful’.
SHANE: Yeah, that’s definitely got his style.
SINÉAD: He also played on ‘I Don’t Know How To Love Him’ actually.
SHANE: That is wild – it’s a fucking wild song. I always thought that was a great song, but they always did such wimpy fucking versions of it.
SINÉAD: Yeah, yeah, yeah [nods vigorously]. That came out when I was about eight, and I remember thinking, ‘That’s my fucking song!’ Ha, ha!
VICTORIA: Shane, you never finished telling us what happened on the jacks!
SHANE: Oh yeah! Well, it was just a horrible, crawling sort of... Em, I was reading about [Colombian cocaine baron] Pablo Escobar, right. About everyone coming up telling him he was gonna get blown away, yeah. And his own people were dropping like flies all over the place. And I just suddenly got this horrible crawling fear of death, ya know worra mean? And I went upstairs and just bundled myself up in an embryonic heap, and went to sleep. And then Vickie got up and came into the room and I said, ‘Can you stick the album on again?’ And it had that kind of natural calmness to it. More or less made you glad to be alive. It went straight to my heart. No bullshit. Was that a... [pauses and takes a long drink]. And I liked the title – Theology. It’s straightforward, ya know worra mean? I liked ‘The Glory Of Jah’ and all that stuff, too. [Pauses again and then looks accusingly at Sinead]. You’re supposed to kinda say something – KERSSHHSSHHH!
SINÉAD: I’m waiting for a question.
VICTORIA: What you’re saying is that it took away your fear of death!
SHANE: Yes, yes. Right. Exactly. That was what I was saying. It took away my fear of death. KERSHHSSHHHSSHHH!
[Everybody laughs]
SINÉAD: I reckon the thing about death is to relax and enjoy it, actually.
SHANE: YES! I know. Well, that’s what I’m saying. To sorta chill ... [Long pause]
SINÉAD: I don’t know what to say, Shane. I don’t know what to say. You’ve got to ask me something, I think.
OLAF: What are your feelings on life after death?
VICTORIA: What are your favourite recipes?
SHANE: KERSSSHHHSSSHHH!!
SINÉAD: What are my feelings on life after death? I don’t know. Nobody knows for sure, but I think that when you die, you become pure compassion. And also you become light. That’s what I think. And I also think that there’s some source to which we all go back, but I don’t know what that is. But I do really think that death is just like taking your clothes off. But we’ve been conditioned to be frightened of it. You know, we’ve been brought up to believe that it’s a terrible thing. And it’s hard for those left behind, alright, because you miss the person you love, but I think the person who’s gone is actually peaceful and happy. I think it’s sad that we’re so conditioned to be frightened of it.
SHANE: Well, I’m not normally frightened of it...
SINÉAD: Me neither, but sometimes we are.
SHANE: But there’s various things to help you. Like, I think that music is a healing force. And, like, since fear is the only real thing to be afraid of... KERSSHHHSSHHH! Fear is all you have to confront. All the rest of it, you don’t have any choices, really. Ya know worra mean? You go with the flow, yeah?
SINÉAD: Em... exactly.
SHANE: Yeah, but anyway, your album knocked me out. It really knocked me out. Obviously there’s a couple of tracks that grab you instantly, but it’s also one of those albums that you can sorta relax and listen to whenever you need a bit of cheering-up.
SINÉAD: Well, that’s what I think the Rasta records are like. That’s what I listen to if I’m freaked out. It always works.
OLAF: Did Sly and Robbie play on this album?
SINÉAD: On this album? I don’t know, actually. It was RonTom that kinda got everybody in. I was leaving them to record for two weeks, kinda thing, and then going over and doing the vocals. So he was kinda the boss. So I couldn’t tell you half the people who played on it at all.
OLAF: Lots of different musicians, then?
SINÉAD: Yeah. But I think music is a bit like that. If it’s good then music is like arms around you, isn’t it?
SHANE: Yeah, yeah. It is! You get your cellos and fiddles and all the rest of it, coming in and doing it when they need to come in. But basically it’s just... [shrugs and takes another long drink]. But basically, I think your voice has really matured. Like, it’s either gonna mature or you’re gonna lose it! [Laughs]. But no, it’s really matured and it’s just got that quality. It’s just the... the voice of a woman. Ya know worra mean?
SINÉAD: Yeah. I think so.
SHANE: And I’ll never pretend to understand a woman! KERSHHSSHHHSHH! There’s two races of human beings on this planet – and that’s woman and man! [Laughs].
OLAF: Can I ask a nasty journo question here? You two seem to be getting on great today, but you’ve been at loggerheads in the not so distant past...
SINÉAD: We’ve never been at loggerheads!
OLAF: Come on! Yes, you have!
VICTORIA: Honestly. We’ve never been at loggerheads. We never all stopped seeing each other.
OLAF: So was that whole smack thing just something that was blown up out of all proportion by the tabloids?
SINÉAD: Yeah. We never really had an argument in our lives, did we Shane?
SHANE: Not a serious one. I made a stupid joke and it all got blown up into something stupid.
SINÉAD: Did I get pissed off?
SHANE: Yeah [laughs]. But I mean, why not? It was sexist and it was... KERSSHHSSHHH!
[Everybody talks over each other for about 30 seconds].
OLAF: Hang on a second! Putting this bluntly, didn’t you, Sinéad, shop Shane to the London cops for taking smack a few years back?
SINÉAD: Yeah, but...
VICTORIA: She did, but what everybody ignores is that I was the one who asked her to do it! I didn’t have the courage to do it myself, so she did it for me. That’s what happened! She did it! And it worked!
[Everybody talks over each other again, rendering the tape unintelligible].
SINÉAD: Seriously, though, we never really fell out or anything, did we?
SHANE: The one argument we did have, you were actually right.
SINÉAD: I can’t even remember what it was about. What did we argue about?
SHANE: About the smack... [Laughs]
SINÉAD: Ah yeah! Even then, we didn’t actually argue...
SHANE: No, no. You just went to the cops... KERSSSHHHSSSHHH!
SINÉAD: Quite happily. But we didn’t have an argument about it.
OLAF: It’s not really like either of you to do anything particularly quietly, though. Not always by choice. For example, Sinéad, you just had the tabloids all over you because you bought a new house near where an old murder happened, and they made a big thing about you buying a ‘murder house’. And as for you, Shane, every time you fall out the door, there’s a story about you. Does that bother either of you?
SHANE: Nah, doesn’t bother me at all. Does it bother you, Sinéad?
SINÉAD: It doesn’t bother me all the time, but sometimes, yeah, it does bother me. It depends on what the thing is.
OLAF: Do you think that kind of shared tabloid intrusion into your personal lives is a bonding thing? You know, one of the reasons why you’re friends?
SINÉAD: I don’t think that has anything to do with why people are friends. People are just friends because they like each other or because they have some kind of connection.
OLAF: Do you know Britney Spears?
SINÉAD: No.
OLAF: Do you have any feelings for her? Sorry – just when she shaved her head, she reminded me a little of you ...
SINÉAD: I’ve always had feelings for her, in terms of feeling sorry for her for the way they treat her. I feel sorry for her for the way she’s stuck. If I were her, I’d move out of America and go live somewhere else. Like, Longford.
VICKIE: Longford! Ha, ha!
SINÉAD: Yeah. Well, I just feel sorry that she can’t get away from all that shit. I mean, her family live in the equivalent of Longford. What are her family doing? I feel sorry that she’s trapped in that. It’s disgusting, really, what people are doing to her.
OLAF: But pretty much the same thing has happened to you in the past. Did you ever freak?
SINÉAD: Yeah, constantly. I have a permanent freak. Ha, ha! I was completely freaked for years. Totally.
OLAF: But you can take the piss out of it now. For example, recently on Podge & Rodge you ripped up a picture of Louis Walsh – a reference to that time you ripped up a picture of the Pope.
SINÉAD: I’m sure they’ll make him rip up a picture of me at some point.
SHANE: You ripped up a picture of Louis Walsh on Podge & Rodge?
SINÉAD: Well, only because they asked me to. It would’ve been rude to say no.
SHANE: They’re a pair of right bastards, actually. KERSSHHHSSSHHH! They can’t take it either. They give it but they can’t take it.
OLAF: They kind of shortened your appearance, didn’t they, Shane?
SHANE: Yeah. They ‘ad to. [Laughs]
OLAF: Are you a fan of Irish television, Sinead?
SINÉAD: I mostly just watch the news actually.
OLAF: Are you following the ‘Miss D’ abortion case at the moment?
SINÉAD: Actually I mostly watch the English news, but I am aware of that case, obviously.
OLAF: What’s your take on it?
SINÉAD: My take on it is the same as it’s always been. A person should have the right to decide whether they’re ready or not to have a baby. And whether they can deal with it. Especially in a situation like hers. It’s different to any other regular situation, you know. But at the same time, I don’t think that I have the right to be telling anybody what’s right or what’s wrong. It’s nothing to do with me, in lots of ways. But I feel sorry that somebody doesn’t have the freedom of movement, never mind anything else. The idea that somebody could be stopped from travelling for any reason is kind of archaic.
OLAF: Shane, you’ve been stopped from travelling a few times ...
SHANE: Not in a long time.
VICKIE: Isn’t Shane meant to be doing the interview, Olaf?
OLAF: I’m just keeping things moving, Victoria.
SINÉAD: He’s just keeping it moving.
SHANE: Yeah. Let’s keep it moving. Anyway, the Irish thing like... There’s a huge relationship between... Well, particularly, like, I love country and rock & roll and jazz. They’ve got a totally different noise in the West Indies than we have over here – musically, I mean. And that’s why I was making the comparison with Astral Weeks or something. Where you’re really just letting it all out...
SINÉAD: Yeah. What are you getting at?
SHANE: Just that it sounded like it was fun to make.
SINÉAD: I know what you mean. That somehow you’re not thinking just in terms of the role of your Irish musical culture. Like you’re not necessarily just making traditional records, I guess. Is that what you mean?
SHANE: Well, everything’s traditional, isn’t it?
SINÉAD: Yeah, in a way. I saw Kila the other night – they played support at Dublin Castle. Fuck! They were like traditional Irish music on acid! They’re totally like an acid trip. They were completely mad. It was brilliant!
SHANE: Well, poitin has got its uses. KERRRSSSHHHHH!
SINÉAD: In fact, I had a sip of poitin once and I was completely pissed.
SHANE: Yeah, but you ought to have taken it further. You drink enough of it and... [mumbles unintelligibly before lapsing into a brief silence]. But anyway, we’re pretty psychedelic people, aren’t we? Well, everybody is actually. But that’s what you find out when you travel.
SINÉAD: Definitely. Though I guess we’re not as psychedelic as we would be if we were all doing acid. But I reckon Kila have done a shitload of acid! Ha, ha! I had flashbacks when I was watching them the other night. Oh man! Or else they’d done a lot of mushrooms.
SHANE: Do you remember the ancient Irish idea we were talking about before?
SINÉAD: What was that?
SHANE: It was me, you and Vickie. And I was reading out a translation of an old Irish poem by this guy who was saying that poetry, music and all the rest of it is all the same thing. And it’s the listener who makes the meaning out of it. Do you remember that?
SINÉAD: Em... yeah. Did I argue with you over that?
SHANE: Nah, it was just a very beautiful poem. But I think I was on my high-horse about Irish poetry and all that. I think it was O’Raftery or one of those old guys. And we were all having a great time, yeah? And I read it out, saying, ’Isn’t that amazing?’ And you and her said, ‘Yeah, he probably went and had a wank afterwards!’ [Laughs].
VICKIE: We didn’t say that!
SHANE: Yes, you did. And actually it was probably true. KERSSSHHHSSSHHH!
[Everybody laughs and talks over each other again].
SINÉAD: I remember that time your dad came round.
VICKIE: My dad tried to get off with her!
SHANE: Oh yeah. He had Hitler’s cufflinks!
OLAF: Hitler’s cufflinks?
VICKIE: He brought her a pair of Hitler’s cufflinks as a present!
OLAF: Do you mean cufflinks that belonged to Hitler or a pair of cufflinks with Hitler’s image on them?
SINÉAD: They had belonged to Hitler. This was Victoria’s dad’s way of trying to chat a girl up! Ha, ha!
SHANE: But they had no power of their own. Do you understand? You consult your power. The swastika is an ancient fucking symbol of love. It’s a mandala, like a cross is a mandala.
SINÉAD: But the Nazis turned it the other way round, that was the thing.
SHANE: That’s actually a bit of a myth. Because whatever way you turn it around... em, you can’t turn it around because it’s symmetrical. Like a cross or a circle or a mandala. But he was into all that stuff. He wanted to find things like the Spear of Destiny and use them for evil purposes. Em... [sips drink]. Who the hell are we talking about again?
SINÉAD: Hitler.
SHANE: Oh yeah [laughs]. He tried to get the Holy Grail and the Spear of Destiny – you know the spear they stuck in Jesus’ side – and the Arc of the Covenant. And the Nazis were really looking for them. What was that Harrison Ford film again? Raiders of the Lost Ark. That was actually based on truth. The real nutters at the top felt that they were the natural follow-on from all these supposedly great empires – like the Roman Empire or whatever. And they tried to gather all the symbols together. How did this come up again? Oh yeah, Hilter’s cufflinks. And Vickie’s dad. That was really funny!
SINÉAD: It was horrible. Ha, ha!
[Conversation goes off the record for a time – though the gist of it is that Vickie’s father got nowhere with Sinéad, and Shane somehow wound up owning Hitler’s cufflinks].
SHANE: Anyway, as I was saying, those cufflinks are my pension!
SINÉAD: No, Shane. Your songs are your pension!
SHANE: Yeah. Well, we all know that the music business can be a bit slow in delivering the cash.
SINÉAD: Yeah, but do you remember that time they did that survey of the 100 most loved Irish songs of all time – voted for by Irish people. And something like three of your songs were in the top eight – including the first and the third. And the first one was ‘Fairytale Of New York’. That’s your fucking pension! Your songs are worth a lot more than bloody Hitler’s cufflinks.
SHANE: Yeah... but not to a Nazi! KERSSHHHSSSHHH!!!
OLAF: You should flog them to George Bush.
SHANE: Yeah, George Bush and that lot are all on exactly the same trip.
SINÉAD: Maybe the best thing you could do with them is chuck them in the fucking ocean!
SHANE: Yeah, but I’ve already done that with a Satanic badge, yeah? It was driving me nuts. This was years ago. And I was totally out of it when I accepted it from a very good friend – who was a very sound guy. And then I started feeling like I was possessed by a demon. It was in London actually, when there was a lot of Satanism going around at the time. Me and Vickie were walking over a canal bridge and I was going, ‘This is driving me nuts, I can’t take any more of this!’ And she said, ‘Why don’t you just take the devil badge off and throw it in the bloody water?’ Because traditionally, the devil or his accomplices hate water.
SINÉAD: Apparently they also hate Latin. That’s why they used to say the mass in Latin.
SHANE: No – they used Latin! The Germans screwed it up totally, because... [goes off on a brief incoherent rant about demons, Nazis and swastikas].
SINÉAD: But anyway, Shane, to get back to my point, the only thing you can do with Hitler’s cufflinks is chuck them away. Let’s face it, you can’t sell those to anybody.
SHANE: [Pulls blank face] Why not? KERSSSHHHSSHHH!
SINÉAD: Because it’s bad – and it’s badness. And if you give them to somebody, whether for money or not, you’re giving badness to somebody, like. You may as well chuck it in the ocean – then you don’t have to give it to anybody.
SHANE: I’ll have to think about that one, yeah.
SINÉAD: And I’ll betcha if you did do that, you’d find the money in some other way. Probably more money than you’d get for the Hitler cufflinks.
SHANE: Hmmm... [Considers this for a moment] You’re bloody right! KERSSSHHSSHH! You’re dead right!
SINÉAD: Chuck ‘em! Ha, ha!
VICKIE: I think you should talk about where you two first met...
OLAF: Great idea!!!
SHANE: That was at the Forum, I think.
SINÉAD: I don’t remember.
VICKIE: No, it was in our flat on Liverpool Road. BP Fallon brought her around.
SHANE: No, we met in Dublin definitely. Lillie’s Bordello or somewhere.
VICKIE: No, BP brought her around to our house after she’d put out that single. The one which made loads of money.
SHANE: What? ‘Nothing Takes The Place Of You’? [laughs]. That Prince thing? Nah, you were already big news in Ireland with The Lion And The Cobra. The first time I really clocked into you was the video for ‘Mandika’. You were playing the electric guitar. You actually looked like Noddy Holder’s daughter.
SINÉAD: I wasn’t really playing!
SHANE: Or Noddy Holder’s daughter after a lot of really good plastic surgery! KERSSHHSSSHH!
VICKIE: But it was BP Fallon that introduced us to her. And they both had the shaved heads. And he brought her around. And she had the baby and John [Reynolds]. Jake had just been born so whatever year that was [1987]. What I remember most, Sinéad, is that I made you tea. Because you drank tea and you didn’t drink the alcohol. I thought that was a bit strange. Usually people would come around and do a huge line and then a large whatever. But you wanted a nice cup of tea.
SHANE: Oh yeah, Charlie was there, wasn’t he?
VICKIE: Charlie? Yeah, he was.
OLAF: Sinéad, didn’t your record company put you under pressure to have an abortion when they discovered you were pregnant with Jake?
SINÉAD: Yeah, they did. I was 19, almost 20.
OLAF: Was it intense pressure?
SHANE: All record companies are intense!
SINÉAD: I don’t know whether it was intense or not, but it’s how you feel it. I certainly felt it intensely, if you know what I mean. It was interesting because me and Karl Wallinger were both having babies at the same time. But none of this happened to Karl. In those days, record companies had a doctor. If you were ill, they sent you to their doctor. And these were these rock & roll doctors. I can’t remember this guy’s name. He had a brilliant fuckin’ name. You’d probably know him, Shane. An old American guy. [A brief head-scratching session comes up with the doctor’s name].
Anyway, they sent me to this doctor when I told them I was pregnant. And when I got there, and I was only 19 and freaked and all, this guy said to me, ‘Your record company has spent one hundred thousand quid recording your record, and you owe it to them not to have the baby’. And then he tried to convince me that terrible things would happen to the baby, for example, if I went out on tour while I was pregnant, or got on an airplane or whatever, that the baby would be ill. Not that it would die, but that it would be born mentally handicapped. I swear on a stack of Bibles that that’s literally what happened.
SHANE: Was that when you were making The Lion And The Cobra?
SINÉAD: Yeah, it was while I was making my first record. And what actually happened was that I had a producer originally on that record at the time, and I fucking hated what he was doing. So what happened was we recorded the album twice. And the first time I recorded was the hundred thousand quid that the record company had spent. But they actually pulled the album. I never told them I hated it, but they began to hate it. So they ultimately pulled it. And had I listened to this doctor guy, I would’ve gotten rid of my baby and, what happened was, they pulled the record anyway. And we went on to make another.
I was also under pressure from other places not to have the baby. And I did actually give in. So I went to hospital not to have it, if you know what I mean. And thank God, what happened was I completely freaked-out. Just freaked-out, like! And I wouldn’t let them anywhere near me. It was really funny, because they called John... and John Reynolds basically wasn’t around or whatever, blah, blah, blah. So they called him and told him to come in. And the fucking social worker asked him was I on drugs, and was that why I was freaking out. Because I was on drugs? So, thank God, the social worker said something like, ‘If she doesn’t have this baby she’s going to become a raving lunatic forever’. Of course, I’m a raving lunatic anyway [laughs].
SHANE: What age were you again?
SINÉAD: I was 19 at that time, going on 20. That was around November/December and I turned 20 on the 8th of December.
SHANE: Was the age of seniority 21 then?
SINÉAD: I dunno. I haven’t a clue. So I almost didn’t have the baby because of it, because when you’re that young and under that kinda pressure. Everybody was telling me at the same time that you’re not gonna earn any money, you’re gonna be fucked. I was living in a council flat at the time. So I was under a lot of pressure. But yeah, the long and short of it is that the record company had their doctor say that to me. But nobody said a word to Karl Wallinger!
SHANE: You know what it says in the constitution, yeah? I’m not gonna get involved in the arguments about gays and women and all the rest of it, but in the constitution it says... [goes off on a rant about politicians kowtowing to the Catholic Church].
SINÉAD: [Interrupting] Actually, Shane, I’ve just realised something. My daughter just flashed through my mind. Sorry, I’m thinking about her, because she’s gonna be home in a little while. I know you’ve met her a few times before, but she adores you. She’s gonna totally fucking freak out when she comes in here and sees you.
SHANE: I’ve met her before, haven’t I?
SINÉAD: Yeah, but when we came out for dinner that night, she didn’t realise that you were Shane MacGowan. She’d only heard the records, but she hadn’t seen you. So she was sitting at dinner all night and she didn’t realise it was you. And then she said ‘Who was that guy over there?’ So when I told her it was Shane MacGowan, she nearly went mad. When she comes in here, she’s gonna freak. But isn’t that sweet? She loves Shane MacGowan and Johnny Cash. She loves all of Johnny Cash’s murder songs, you know all the really dark ones? So she’s at a guitar lesson now and she’s learning how to play ‘Folsom Prison Blues’. Ha, ha!
SHANE: But that’s one of his happier songs! He kills his wife! [laughs] Oh no – he kills a bloke! Just to watch him die! KERSSSHHHSSSSHHH!
SINÉAD: Actually, that reminds me... [proceeds to tell a scandalous story about a certain internationally famous cult rocker]. Anyway, at the time he was just really dicking her around. So your instinct if you love somebody is to definitely not let that person anywhere near you – or them. Do you know what I mean?
SHANE: This should be the classic interview of your fucking career, Olaf! Do ya know worra mean? KERSSSHHHHHHSSHH!!! You’re really getting the stuff here!!! KERSSHHHSSHHH!!!!
SINÉAD: Actually, you’d better leave that out. That’s off the record!
OLAF: Ah, don’t do that to me!
VICKIE: No, you’d better not print that.
SINÉAD: Nah, there’s no point causing a load of shit at this stage.
[Tape goes off briefly as hotpress is sworn to silence].
SHANE: We better go back to Theology, yeah? It’s gonna be an 11-song record, yeah? A mixture of acoustic and full band...
SINÉAD: Right [nods].
SHANE: Well, it really knocked me out, yeah. I especially loved the Dublin sessions. I preferred them to the London ones. But naturally – with me being a Republican wanker! [laughs]. Who produced the Dublin sessions?
SINÉAD: Steve Cooney.
SHANE: I know him, actually.
SINÉAD: He played guitar on it as well. He’s amazing. I love him. Yeah, I co-produced the Dublin sessions with him and Graham Bolger. But I wasn’t producing the London ones. RonTom did those. Oh, hi there!
[We’re interrupted by the arrival of Jake, who joins us at the table].
SHANE: So it’s all ready to go, yeah? You gonna tour it?
SINÉAD: Yeah, it’s coming out on June 26. And there’s gonna be a tour.
SHANE: What’s going on the cover?
SINÉAD: There’s two different covers – there’s a different one in the States than there is here. The one here is just kinda blue with a symbol on it, and it says Theology in this writing. And the one in the States has a photo on the cover and the title in the same writing. Nothing too wild or exciting .
SHANE: Coming from someone who’s got a natural hatred of organised religion – which is fair enough, yeah? – the title Theology is, well, it’s a title. You know what I mean? And then when you hear the album...
SINÉAD: I don’t think it’s true that I hate organised religion, though. Because there’s things about it that I love. I’m in love with religion. But what I don’t like about it, I suppose, is that as far as I’m concerned God and religion are two different things. I don’t believe that religion believes in God, actually. And I believe that God needs to be rescued from religion. But that doesn’t mean that I don’t see good things about religion, i.e. the good thing I see about it is that there is a God which needs to be rescued from it.
SHANE: Do you believe you’re part of God?
SINÉAD: Yeah. Absolutely.
SHANE: Then again, everything’s part of God. So we have to rescue ourselves?
SINÉAD: Abso-fuckin-lutely!
SHANE: Anything else you wanna say about it?
SINÉAD: I dunno. What do you want to know?
OLAF: Tell us about the track ‘Watcher Of Men’.
SINÉAD: Every line of that song is actually scripture, from the Book Of Job in the Old Testament. What I’m interested in about the Old Testament is how much – in the Book Of The Prophets, for example – how much what they’re talking about reflects what’s going on in our world today. And there’s only one book in the Bible, in the Old Testament, that deals with the issue of death – or of life, really. And it’s the only dark, negative book in the Bible, as such, that goes through all these terrible things.
It’s the story of Job, who adores God or whatever. And one day the Devil goes to God and says to him, ‘I’ll betcha if you gave me permission to fuck this guy up, he wouldn’t love you then’. And God, for some reason, is bastard enough to say, ‘Yeah, okay, cool – do your worst’. So the Devil goes and fucks up Job, kills all his children, kills all his animals, covers him in boils, and ruins his fucking life entirely.
And Job spends months and months gradually getting worse. And he has all these conversations with his friends, about has he done something for which God is punishing him? So he runs the gamut of it. Really, the book deals with suicidal feelings – the feeling of not wanting to live and how life can be so hard that you don’t know how to live, and you can’t explain it to yourself. So it’s all symbolism.
But anyway, he suffers all this shit and he’s complaining to God and screaming and shouting, but he never gives up believing in God. His friends try to convince him that it must be his fault if God’s done this to him. And Job, interestingly, denies that, and says he knows he hasn’t done anything to be punished for. He screams and shouts at God. But at the end, what happens is that God gets pissed off with Job and says, ‘Who the fuck are you to question whatever shit I decide?’ So God’s a bit of a bastard in it. But that’s the whole answer to the question of life. And it is a wise lesson, although it’s not what we all want to hear. But it’s about death also. The thing is you just accept it – don’t question it, don’t ask about it, don’t try to understand it or even don’t try to understand anything that happens beyond death. If we needed to know, we would know. That’s more or less what the story says. So at the end of it all, Job just says, ‘Oh, okay, I didn’t understand those things. So I accept that I’m dust and ashes and I don’t have a say in those things.’
SHANE: Which is very close to Zen, actually.
SINÉAD: Yeah. But it’s a very dark journey that brings him to this conclusion.
SHANE: Yeah, but Job is definitely the ultimate in yang, yeah.
SINÉAD: Job is the one to read when you’re suffering. There are incredible lessons in it. And again, it’s not always things that you want to fucking hear. But it shows you how to manage suffering. There’d be bits that you’d reject or whatever, but there’d be bits that are powerful that would sink in. Anyway, that’s that song. Every line from that song is from Job.
SHANE: I didn’t know that. I mean, I know the story of Job, but I didn’t realise that about the song. I think all the titles are brilliant actually. I love titles like ‘The Glory Of Jah’. That’s a fucking brilliant song!
SINÉAD: Every line from that is scripture as well. It comes from the Book Of Samuel.
OLAF: I really liked ‘I Don’t Know How To Love Him’ as well.
SINÉAD: Well, I didn’t write that. That’s by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber. It’s from Jesus Christ Superstar.
OLAF: Well... I’ll just hang my head in shame! I genuinely didn’t know that.
SHANE: KERSSHHHSSSHHH!
SINÉAD: You’re a bit younger than all of us so maybe you just missed it [laughs]. We all had that soundtrack in our houses growing up. But just because I didn’t write it, doesn’t mean you can’t ask me about it.
SHANE: It’s a great track. It’s the best fucking version of it that I’ve ever heard. Actually, I think this album is probably the best thing you’ve ever done. You know worra mean? At some stage of the game you just go... [whistles]... and you think, screw it, let’s just have some fun, and I’ll say exactly what I mean. And, like, whether I write it or whether I didn’t, don’t really matter. I’ve ripped loads of stuff outta the I Ching and stuff like that.
OLAF: How do you write songs, Sinéad?
SINÉAD: It’s different every time, really.
SHANE: I don’t really know how songs come to me. It’s a bit like comparing people to each other or something. Sometimes I can hear a song coming through, but I don’t really like it so I let it go. Mostly, I either get bloody silence or I get... [laughs]. Which is fine by me because I love doing covers. Doing covers is a bit of a release, innit?
SINÉAD: It can be. Definitely.
OLAF: Would you two work together again?
SHANE: Definitely.
SINÉAD: Oh yeah.
OLAF: ‘Haunted’ was a brilliant duet.
SHANE: That was a great version alright. It’s funny, you talk about record company pressure. Originally I just wanted to produce her doing it, but, now, looking back, at that duet, it’s good. It’s a different thing, you know. Actually, what’s your favourite... nah, that’s a stupid bloody question! [laughs]
SINÉAD: No, go on. What?
SHANE: Have you got a favourite track that you’ve recorded? Actually, that is a ridiculous question because I couldn’t answer it myself.
SINÉAD: No, it’d probably take a long time to answer because there’s so many. And it changes all the time anyway.
OLAF: Did you record ‘Haunted’ together? As in, in the same studio at the same time?
SINÉAD: I can’t remember. Did we?
SHANE: Yeah, we did. There were a couple of really great musicians there at the time. And there was a bit of a row.
SINÉAD: Was there?
SHANE: Yeah. [Mumbles incoherently]. Ya know worra mean, like.
SINÉAD: All I remember was rehearsing the song with you for Top Of The Pops. Me and you were in my dressing room rehearsing it, and you kept falling asleep. But it was really clever. I’d sing my verse and you’d be looking like you were asleep, and I’d be going, ‘Shit, he’s not gonna wake up’. But you’d always wake up when you had to sing your bit. It was incredible.
OLAF:You’re a true professional, aren’t you, Shane?
SHANE: I sing in my sleep. I talk in my sleep. That’s the only joy you’ll get out of me, darlin! [Laughs]. I even tap my foot!
SINÉAD: Actually, if you don’t mind, I wouldn’t mind finishing up now, because I’m kinda fucked!
OLAF: Any final words for your fans?
SINÉAD: Em... [pauses and pulls face]. I don’t know. Actually, I don’t wanna say anything to my fans. I don’t wanna be all gacky and be saying things to my fans... [adopts American accent] like some country star, you know.
SHANE: Are you happy with the interview?
SINÉAD: I love it, yeah. I think.
SHANE: KERSSHHHSSHHH!

Photographs by Mick Quinn.

Theology is out now on Rubyworks. Sinéad plays Oxegen on Sunday July 8.