Shane's Ire

Senator Shane Ross’s campaign headquarters in Dundrum is situated directly above the local Ladbrokes. Hot Press didn’t pause to check the odds on Ireland’s longest-serving senator winning a Dail seat before going upstairs to interview him but he has to be among the favourites in Dublin South, a constituency that elected George Lee just a couple of years ago. Although he stood unsuccessfully in a general election before (as a Fine Gael candidate in Wicklow in 1992), the feeling is that Ross is on a roll, and that his anti-cronyism message will have wide appeal, especially in the current climate.

Born in Sandyford in 1949, Ross graduated from Trinity with a degree in history and political science in 1971. Having worked as a stockbroker for some years, he was first elected to the Seanad in 1981 as an independent candidate for the University of Dublin constituency, and has been re-elected on nine occasions since.
A prominent member of the Fourth Estate, he is married to RTÉ’s Ruth Buchanan. Currently Business Editor of the Sunday Independent, Ross has published two bestselling books – 2009’s The Bankers and 2010’s Wasters (co-authored with fellow Sunday Independent journo, Nick Webb). He was named 2009 ‘Journalist of the Year’ for his investigation into waste at the State training agency FÁS, which resulted in a major scandal and several prominent heads rolling. A regular talking head on TV and radio, he is a well known campaigner against bankers, semi-states and big government.
In person, the plummy-voiced senator is a warm, friendly, slightly scatty and obliging type. “Are you cold?” he asks, concernedly. “We can go out to a cafe if you like.”
We opt to sit on uncomfortable plastic chairs beside a lone desk, aching under the weight of newly printed campaign literature. His large office isn’t exactly a hive of activity. In fact, a handful of young volunteers aside, the place is practically empty – even of furniture. “We’ve literally just moved in,” Ross explains laughing. “We should have it all sorted later today. But we had sixty people out on the canvass last night and it’ll be pretty much all systems go from this evening on.”
With so much to do, there’s no point in hanging around...

OLAF TYARANSEN: I noticed some graffiti daubed on the wall near the Luas stop: ‘Burn out the bankers!’ Do you think the public mood is angry enough for that to actually happen?
SHANE ROSS: Burn out the bankers? (laughs). Well, I think the public mood is really, really angry. When I was out canvassing last night, it didn’t matter who you were talking to, they were angry with everybody. I think the public mood is to burn the bondholders. It’s very definitely there now, and it’s for accountability. They see the bankers walking the streets, they see the bankers not having to answer to anybody, for anything. Nobody’s been charged. I asked for them before to come before an Oireachtas committee and they refused. I asked Sean Fitzpatrick – he doesn’t have to account to the public for anything, so I think the mood is justifiably absolutely furious, yeah.
Why have you decided to run in the election?
Because, I suppose, a large number of people have said to me ‘Look, the public mood is really angry, you’ve expressed a lot of this over the last 15 years from the Senate, particularly about the banks’. I’ve been bellyaching about the banks for maybe 15 years, a lone voice, particularly about cronyism, particularly about those issues which have now surfaced so much and are now very topical, and people said, ‘Why don’t you get down and dirty?’ The real action and the real knuckledusting, arm to arm combat, happens in the Dáil. And so I said, ‘Yeah, okay let’s see’. You know, it’s time to get off the fence. The Senate is a voice for people with a point of view, but it’s got less power than the Dáil and I wanna get in there and actually fight for those things in a more relevant forum.
You’re running an an Independent. Given your past affiliations with them, why not go with Fine Gael?
Fine Gael asked me to run for them, and I turned them down.
Why?
I don’t think Fine Gael can be reformed. Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour, are all very much embedded in the kind of establishment mentality, which is exactly that sort of oligarchy which I’ve been fighting against. When Fine Gael was in power – for instance, in 1994-97 – they were almost a mirror image of Fianna Fáil. They stuffed Semi-states with their pals, those who’d done fundraising for them, those who were their trustees. They have similar policies. They’ve been into the whole social-partnership consensus: Fine Gael’s been part of that, as have Labour, as have Fianna Fáil. They’re not really offering an alternative. I see these two major parties as tribal, they’re based on family not on policy. So I don’t think Fine Gael can be reformed. They wanted me to run in Dublin South and I said no. George Lee was swallowed up by them, he was suffocated, and I wasn’t going to follow the George Lee example.
Although you were working in tandem with some other independents under the Democracy Now banner, that appears to have fallen apart.
That particular alliance is still in existence, but most of them are actually not going to stand at this stage – Fintan [O’Toole] and David [McWilliams] and Eamon [Dunphy] and others. Now that movement would work – and I’m still working with them – but the panel of candidates which we hoped to put up isn’t going to materialise in time for polling day. We had such a talented lot, but they just couldn’t arrange their lives in that short peiod of time.
If the election hadn’t been brought forward do you think it would’ve happened?
Yes, without a doubt. You have people like Orla Tinsley and others named in the press today, and others who haven’t been mentioned yet, but they just couldn’t arrange to walk out of their jobs within a matter of days. Because they might have been walking into oblivion. And I think if they’d had more time, we would have been able to put a more solid infastructure in place.
Is there a basis for a new political party there?
I have made a decision about this. If I am elected, I will form a new political party. But I will not do that until I get elected. There are approximately 150 independents running in the election. It is too difficult, in the time available, to see how many are sufficiently close to work with. The formation of the party will be on the basis of agreed principles to which everyone will have to sign up. But I think there is a great opportunity there, given the extent of people’s disillusionment with politicians and with the established political parties.
Have you a name in mind?
I think a name like “New Democrats” would be appropriate. I hope that when the new party evolves, it will be able to continue where David McWilliams, Fintan O’Toole, Eamon Dunphy and I left off.
What’s your take on our prospective Taoiseach, Enda Kenny?
Well, I think that he’s being held back from the media for reasons which are obviously being reasonably effective.
He’s not a strong debater.
No. He’s got qualities which obviously are good within the party, but don’t appeal to the public. He’s a good organiser, but he’s a tribal politician. He’s a kind of mirror image of Brian Cowen. Cowen, his father was in the Dáil and now maybe his brother’s gonna stand. And Kenny is just the other side of that coin, his father was in the Dáil and Kenny’s been there since 1977. So, he’s a very nice man but I think he would be better getting into an alliance with Fianna Fáil and forming one party because the only difference is tribe, not policy.
Explain your background to me a little bit...
I was born in Sandyford. I was at primary school up the road here [from Dundrum]. I moved up to Kilgobbin, which is just between Sandyford and Stepaside, lived the first 17 years of my life there and then my parents moved to Skerries. I went to school in England for about 4 years, then I came back, went to Trinity, and then I became a stockbroker. And then I left stockbroking, became a journalist and a Senator. And that’s really what I’ve done since. And I’ve written a couple of books.
You’re standing against cronyism in this election. In the current climate, is that really the most important issue?
The biggest issue is undoubtedly cronyism. People always say, ‘Ah, everyone’s against cronyism’. They’re not. Fianna Fáil’s not against cronyism. Fine Gael’s not against cronyism. Labour’s not against cronyism. The people may be, but the parties aren’t, and that’s the big distinction. I think it’s the biggest issue because it infiltrates all the problems which we’ve got. It was the core issue with banking here in this country. When I started tackling it In the book The Bankers I thought things were bad – but when I went back, I found out cronyism had been there all along. It was an elite looking after their pals, and it still is that way today.
How do you possibly hope to change that?
Well, I’ll tell you. The banks have been nationalised, the government is in charge of who gets on the boards now – and they have been appointing their cronies already, as they have to the boards of FÁS and all these other places. How do you change it? They do it quite effectively in America. You make sure that all appointments to State agencies and State boards – and banks are included in that now – are made by an independent commission. That independent commission appoints people to the boards of banks, and the boards of state agencies, and also judges by the way.
Judges?
Judges are top of the list. These are all political appointments. A lot of them have political pedigrees. When those appointments are made by the independent commission, in all cases they have to go before an Oireachtas committee in front of television cameras. In public, as they should be, and be questioned about what credentials they’ve got for these jobs. As it stands at the moment, a lot of them have no credentials for any of the jobs that they’re in – and they’re damm well paid. But I’d put it stronger than that: after that they’d have to be ratified by those committees, and by a two-thirds majority. So it wouldn’t be one party that was ratifying them. You’d have to have them ratified by two-thirds so it would be a consensus. I think that would be very very effective, particularly in Ireland.
As someone so opposed to cronyism, how did you feel when Bertie Ahern appointed Eoghan Harris to the Senate?
How did I feel? I was in France when I heard that. I think Eoghan’s very, very articulate, very, very able. He’s a most effective Senator indeed. He’s a breath of fresh air in the Senate and he’s been very independent. He hasn’t taken the Fianna Fáil line. So I’m very happy that he’s an independent Senator. He’s the only Taoiseach’s nominee who takes the independent line, he votes as he feels like, and so he never took the Government whip. The other ten unfortunatly, they all take the Government whip.
If you had to point the finger of blame for the current situation that we’re in, who would you point it at?
I’d point to a golden circle. It’s a very tight oligarchy in Ireland and it’s very easy to identify, and what happened in the 2005-2007 period was that that oligarchy got found out. Obviously you’ve got the bankers: they’re probably more powerful than the government or anybody else. They were feeding the developers, who were the vehicle for all the greed that happened. The developers are now the only people not in the circle, they’ve been cast out. The bankers are fine. The developers linked to the politicians. The bankers gave the developers as much money as they wanted, the developers gave the politicians money. The politicians, in exchange gave the developers tax breaks…
Do you think they gave bribes?
I don’t know. That has yet to be established.
Our former Taoiseach had large sums of money floating about that were never properly explained.
Of course. Everything like that should be fully investigated and people should be accountable. I mean, they did give money to party funds but that’s established, we know that. In exchange they also got lots of very, very juicy tax breaks. The politicians, and particularly the Department of Finance, were absolutely glued to the mandarins, the permanent government, never accountable to anybody. The Department of Finance in particular I’d hold accountable for what’s been going on. The elite of the civil service, they’re paid more than anybody else. And then Department of Finance… joined at the hip to the Regulator. You know the way the Secretary of the Department of Finance always becomes, bar one I think, the governor of the Central Bank. So the culture and the interplay between them is extremely close. The regulators undoubtedly have a huge amount to answer for. And the regulators were very close to the banks. The book I wrote [2009’s The Bankers] opened with a scene, which is the regulators being wined and dined by the bankers, and that was the regular relationship they had. And as a result, they did the bankers’ bidding. There’s a history of that going back thirty years. At one stage, I think there was an overlap between Central Bank and Bank Directors. And so you’ve got this incredibly tight circle in Ireland, maybe a hundred people who are to blame. But they looked after each other incredibly well. And you can see evidence of it in The Fitzpatrick Tapes, which has come out now. It was very, very cosy.
On your website, you have a blogpost entitled ‘Sean Quinn: We Salute You’ [February 2007 website blog post].
Yeah, that’s right.
But he’s one of the golden circle, isn’t he?
Sean Quinn was at one stage... (laughs). Well, yeah. At the time he was very enterprising and challenging all the big multis like CRH and all the big insurance companies. And I thought he was a breath of fresh air in what he was doing at the time, but that was long before we knew the complete hames he was making of his life in terms of Anglo.
But I take it you no longer salute him?
I don’t salute him anymore. But for what he did then at the time, it was useful.
In your Dáil declarations of interests, you’re down as a non-executive director of several hedge funds. What do you do for them?
I’m a non-executive director of what they call a ‘Fund of Funds’. I’m invested in hedge funds, and if people had listened to some of the hedge funds – I don’t get very well renumerated, incidentally, if that’s your next question – rather than to the bankers they would have told them what the story was with AIB and Bank of Ireland and everybody else, because they were signalling, ‘Hey we think the banks are in trouble’. They have a useful purpose certainly…
Are you not somewhat affiliated with banks through these hedge funds?
No, because they’re not in any way… they buy and sell bank shares as they feel like. But I’m looking after the investors, not the others. Those people who invest in hedge funds and, you know, they buy and sell bank shares as they feel like, but they don’t act for banks in any way.
Are you wealthy?
No. Not at all rich. I’m comfortably off. And very grateful for that. And so I don’t have financial troubles as such, but I’m not rich in any sense like that, no.
Were you affected by the economic crash?
No. I sold my house and moved to another one during the crash so I wasn’t in negative equity. I didn’t borrow.
Speaking of negative equity, surely we as a nation have to pay this money back to the bondholders?
Why?
Well, tell me why not.
Because it’s immoral. I’ll put it very simply: why should Irish taxpayers have to pay European banks for their reckless lending? That’s why. And what happened in this case was that the Irish banks lent money to people here, developers, which we’re now paying back. Where did the Irish banks get their money? The Irish banks got that money from bondholders, basically, who include European banks, US banks and lots of other people who were lending to Anglo, AIB and Bank of Ireland when all the markets were signalling that these banks were in incredible trouble. So there was massive, reckless lending by those bondholders to Irish banks who were behaving recklessly, and anybody who looked at it would have known that. And the hedge funds were signalling quite clearly that these banks were behaving recklessly. And if the bondholders were lending to lunatics, then why should they be paid back?
How do you rate [Brian] Lenihan?
I think he’s an extraordianrily able man and I think he’s been put in a very, very difficult situation. He’s made lot of mistakes in recent times, but I think his initial instincts were good. Some of his estimates have gone completely haywire, but I think in terms of ability he’s probably head and shoulders above most people in government.
Micheál Martin?
I think probably he lacks steel. He’s unlikely to lead Fianna Fáil back to the promised land. He’s a very nice man, a very decent, gentle sort of guy – but I don’t thnk he’s going to able to rescue them from their situation. They’re in freefall. It’s a pity he hasn’t held the hardest ministry before he got there, but I think he’s part of the old regime so he has a big responsibility to bear.
What’s your stance on the abortion debate?
The abortion debate has been avoided like the plague by politicians for twenty, thirty years, and I think it’s an extraordinarily difficult one and I think my own views are that there’s extremists on both sides that made life very, very difficult in Ireland. On the pro-life and the other side. I think it’s one which it may be impossible to find a right or wrong answer – but you have to find a humane answer for both sides. I feel it’s the hardest problem to resolve in political life and I think nobody’s found a resolution for it yet. That’s how I feel about it.
But what would your resolution be?
I think that you’re going to have to make sure that if ever there is a danger to the health of the mother that she is allowed to have an abortion.
What’s your opinion on the proposed new legislation that will make it a criminal offence for a man to pay for sex?
I think it’s... (pauses) I think that legislation... I mean it hasn’t come in yet?
No.
I don’t know. I haven’t seen that legislation yet but when I see it then I’ll know. I don’t think it’s right to criminalise activities of that sort.
I interviewed Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan recently (Mayor of Roscommon and fellow Independent election candidate) and he reckons that legalised cannabis would be worth €1.1 billion to the Irish economy. Is cannabis legalisation something you’d consider?
No. I don’t think it’s a good idea to reduce… I think that basically cannabis ought to be continued in the state that it is. I don’t think that legalisation of cannabis would be a good idea.
Surely the situation at the moment is terrible. I mean, it’s costing an awful lot of money to implement these consistently failed policies?
The situation in regards to cannabis I think is that the legalisation of drugs would create a greater problem socially than it has at the moment.
Have you ever smoked cannabis?
Eh… yeah, when I was a student I did, yeah.
Did you enjoy it?
Not particularly. No (laughs).
Do you drink?
No. Never.
You never drank?
Yeah, I drank till I was about 35 and then gave it up. About 25 years ago.
Did you have to give it up?
No, I gave it up voluntarily, but I was drinking too much. There’s no doubt I was drinking too much.
A stockbroker’s life…
Stockbrokers understand it, yeah.
Do you think that Brian Cowen’s drinking has been an issue in the last while?
It obviously was at the time that he had the Morning Ireland issue. I see him around and I’ve never seen any evidence of him having a drink problem.
Do you think that drink is an issue in Irish politics generally, in that a lot of deals are done over pints?
No, I don’t. I think it was but I think those people who used to drink too much, there was a saying y’know that they’d ‘Drink themselves out of their Dáil seats’. And you don’t see drunkenness in Leinster House any more at all.
Which politicians do you admire?
At the moment, not an awful lot of politicians. I like Joe Higgins enormously, because I think he speaks his mind. He’s incorruptible, he’s extraordinarily honest. I don’t agree with what he says, but I like his attitude and the fact that he’s outspoken. There aren’t really very many others. I admire Fergal Quinn because I think in a way he’s above the rest of us, he’s above politics and he fights in a very non-combative way. He’s constructive, very positive.
Where do you stand on gay marriage?
I think that’s fine, let it go. I think it’s fine. If people want to do that, that’s totally up to them. I don’t think those matters are any business of anybody else.
Elton John and his partner have just fathered a child. What’s your take on that?
Fine. If they want to do that. It’s fine.
Would you describe yourself as a liberal?
I suppose I would be, yeah. I think I probably would be liberal about virtually everything. I mean it’s got connotations which I don’t quite understand – but I think in terms of when I was a Senator, at the start I supported all the divorce legislation, contraception legislation, all those areas.
Are you religious at all?
Not really. I’m kind of not anti-religious or pro-religious. It’s not something I’ve given much attention to. I couldn’t say I kneel down to say prayers every night.
Do you believe in God?
I don’t know.
So you’re agnostic?
Yeah.
When you look at the shady deal that Michael Woods did with the Catholic Church, where taxpayers’ money has been used to pay for compensation for child sexual abuse, is that something that you’d reconsider?
Yes.
Do you think that religious organisations like Opus Dei have a stranglehold on the Dáil?
I see no evidence of Opus Dei having a stranglehold on the Dáil. I don’t know anybody in Opus Dei who is identifiably a member of the Dáil. That deal was wrong, but I saw no evidence of Opus Dei moving around that, none.
What’s your opinion on the controversy surrounding the Corrib Gas Field?
I think there’s a huge conflict there between the employment issue and the issue of what Shell is doing. I’ve been a huge opponent of what Shell did in Nigeria, and I think they’ve got an enormous amount to answer for. But I think on balance, that deal probably should have gone through. I think the demands of employment out there are very very important.
What kind of music do you like?
Oh god. Even though I’m not religious, I like hymns. Things like ‘I Vow to Thee, My Country’ and all the hymns that I remember from school. I don’t have an enormous amount of time for music now.
You wrote a fairly caustic piece in the Sunday Independent about the artists’ tax exemption because you failed to get it for your own book while Bertie Ahern got it for his. Was that sour grapes?
No, I don’t think that was sour grapes (laughs). The piece I wrote was quite tongue-in-cheek because Bertie got it as far as I know, and I found it quite difficult to reconcile that he had and I hadn’t. No doubt they had good reason, but it’s actually going to appeal.
Watching all these failed politicians sailing off into the sunset with massive pensions is incredibly irritating. Should political pensions be reduced?
The pensions are absolutely crazy. The thing is the salary is much too high, so you get a situation where Cowen was getting more than Obama – and the pensions are linked to the salaries. So what you do is reduce the salaries and that way you reduce the pensions. It’s simple. And the pensions will come down proportionately, yes. It’s gotta be done and it will be done I presume by the next government – although I’ve very little faith in any politicians at the moment actually doing it when they get into power.
Will you take a paycut yourself?
If it’s required, I will certainly take a paycut. I will willingly take a paycut. I’ve already taken paycuts, and I will willingly take another one.
When was the last time you cried?
When my brother died, I think.
Are you an emotional type?
Not really, but I cry quite a lot. I cried when my grandchildren were born. And when my brother died I certainly cried and... I can’t remember the last time. But yeah, I kind of tend to burst into tears from time to time.
There could well be tears – and blood – spilt during this election campaign. Are you a dirty fighter?
No. I’m just going straight out, campaigning, and hope for the best. See what happens. Really the message that I want to put across is that the established political parties are all very similar and that this is the time to introduce new politics to Ireland. That’s really the message.