Minister James Lawless: "How do we have two different rules [for alcohol and marijuana]?"

Minister James Lawless is making small talk as he settles behind his government desk for his first major interview since his appointment.

“I’ve followed a few of these Hot Press interviews over the years,” he says, “so it’s good to be asked.”

Not that he is going to take himself too seriously.

“I think I’ve made it when I’m asked to do this,” he adds with a grin. “Or maybe I’m in the rogues’ gallery – or a bit of both!”

The good news is that he’s got a sense of humour. The other is that he is a big music fan, which we’ll talk about in a while.

But first, I make the observation that, in a way, he was fulfilling his destiny when Taoiseach Micheál Martin appointed the Kildare North TD as Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.

“I suppose this department was my idea when I was in opposition,” the Fianna Fáil man agrees. “I was spokesperson on science, technology, and innovation. I was meeting lots of different agencies, scientists, technologists and research people, and going out to visit all the colleges.

“At the time, it was all scattered between the Department of Enterprise and the Department of Education. And there were random bits, like research into climate change, also going on in the Department of the Environment.

“And I said, ‘Well, shouldn’t they all be under one roof, because there’s so much synergy there?’”

And so it came to pass, with Lawless succeeding Simon Harris, and more recently Patrick O’Donovan, in the new role. So who is this man, and what is he planning? Tape recorder switched on, it’s time for the minister to lay his cards on the table.

Jason O’Toole: Were you a bit of a rebel in your youth?

I had long hair in secondary school. We got away with it for a while and then we were asked to cut our hair. I remember borrowing my sister’s hair bands, hair clips, and going back to school in the morning with it all tied behind the ears and trying to pretend it wasn’t long anymore. But it didn’t work. I bit the bullet.

Were you a metalhead?

I was a massive Smiths fan as a teenager. I was fanatical. I used to run at one stage with a bit of a quiff, a bit of a blazer, a bit of a paisley shirt and the odd flower in the pocket, a la Morrissey.

Sounds like you were a big music fan.

I used to collect vinyl. I grew up in Wexford and I used to hitchhike from Gorey, where I lived, to Arklow, which was the nearest town that had a record store. It was called Wired Music Shop, and there was a guy with long hair, over the hill, a classic record shop guy. I’d often go down on a Saturday with pocket money from your summer job and buy a couple of albums. I bought Ride – ‘Vapour Trail’. All their LPs: Nowhere, Going Blank Again, which was their breakthrough album. But I was into them even before they were famous.

What else were you into?

I was into the New Romantics. You know, your Depeche Mode, Talking Heads, Human League. But also very much into indie music – shoegaze, some people called it. So, your Stone Roses, your Ride, your Teenage Fan Club, your Portishead, My Bloody Valentine. Actually, The Smiths introduced me to bands like the Psychedelic Furs, because Morrissey said he was inspired by those at some New York events he was at. You know, things like Fugazi. Obviously Nirvana – ‘Smells Like Teen Spirit’ was the anthem of my generation. I was like, wow! I remember being at a nightclub and the whole place went berserk and going, “This will change our world.” I never got to see Nirvana play, but I saw The Stone Roses, Ride, Teenage Fan Club, My Bloody Valentine. I remember one night going to see The Charlatans and the very next night going to see The Chemical Brothers.

 

What’s on your playlist these days?

I listen to all of that still, but also I’m a big Pogues fan. When I was Mayor of Naas, we got Shane down to a gig. He couldn’t string a word together because the poor man had his demons, but it was just great to be in his company and shoot the breeze. Whatever, from The Pogues to The Dubliners, it’s just for a bit of release, because a lot of what I do is so intense. And a bit of pop. I’m a bit of a closet Swifty [laughs]. She has strong roots in folk music, so she’s a very serious artist.

Are you musical yourself?

I was in a band very briefly. There was a band jamming through the summer, and their singer dropped out – there were musical differences! – and I got the call two weeks out [from a gig, asking], “Can you sing?” I didn’t tell them the truth, which was that I couldn’t! I think they learnt pretty fast in rehearsals. But I took to the stage at the Gorey Summer Fair, and there was a huge crowd to see The Bards, who were a big thing at the time. They were coming on stage at 10 o’clock, and we were at the last bit of the talent contest at about 10 to 10. So, I went on stage, and thought, “That’s a massive crowd.”

What were you called?

I also renamed the band on the spot! Without telling my bandmates, I went on stage and announced that we were now to be called Factory – a nod to Factory Records because I was a big fan of that Manchester scene, and Tony Wilson, and all that went with it. The song we played was ‘Just Like Heaven’. Not The Cure version – we did the Dinosaur Jr cover version. But look, some great times, some great fun. I couldn’t sing then, I can’t sing now. I would love to play an instrument. My granddad played an accordion. I tried it a few times – it cleared the room very quickly. So I don’t play it anymore [laughs].

I’m guessing you must have been a Hot Press reader, too.

Yes. I would have done, especially for the indie scene. I would have gone up to Freebird on O’Connell Street corner. I might have bought Hot Press in there, or in Eason’s around the corner. And then I’d have gone out to Temple Bar to get my flares, my shirts and my velvet jackets – some of which are still in the wardrobe!

Have you ever smoked marijuana?

I spent some time in Amsterdam and visited coffee shops, etc. I also had many long and deep and meaningful conversations in the various flats I inhabited around Rathmines, Ranelagh, Harold’s Cross, back in the late ’90s, early noughties. There was a lot of long nights.

So did you smoke marijuana, because your answer is a bit vague?

When in Rome! I’ve been very respectable in recent years, particularly since I’ve been in elected office.

Have you ever tried any other drugs?

It’s all very hazy because it’s all a very long time ago. So, I’d have to plead the fifth on that one!

Where do you stand on decriminalisation?

One of the difficulties around cannabis, probably other substances to some extent, is nobody knows what’s in them. What gets measured gets managed. I read an article that said the potency of cannabis now is maybe five times to 10 times the strength of when I was in college. You see occasional warnings about a batch of this or a batch of that substance coming in from the UK, and there’s warnings to kids to say, “Look, it’s like the old Woodstock: don’t take the brown acid, right?” We can joke about that, but there’s a real risk there. Because it’s underground, because this is illegal, nobody has a clue what’s in it. And kids are taking [these] various substances at parties or clubs.

What’s the solution?

I think if we were to treat cannabis in the same way as we treat alcohol, as we treat cigarettes – there’s a health warning, there’s a caution on the label that says “This contains X amount.” And there’s maybe a different set of labelling for different strengths. Certainly, I think a health-led approach.

Are you talking about the Portuguese model?

There’s a lot of merit in the Portuguese approach. I think that if alcohol was produced now as a new substance, it probably wouldn’t even pass the HSE test in terms of being legal. I think: how do we have two different rules [for alcohol and marijuana]? You know, liquid in a bottle can have certain effects, which can often be very detrimental to the individual and to people around them, and [their] mental health, physical health, everything else. And then we have another substance that some people like to smoke. And we treat the first one way, and we treat the other completely differently. And I just think that’s an inconsistency – and the system has to grasp that at some stage.

Why not just legalise marijuana?

I think, as a first step, decriminalisation and a health-led approach. I think long-term, you have to look at how do we have different substances treated in different ways? What is the logic behind that?

So you can see it eventually being legalised in Ireland.

Totally, yeah, yeah. In the US, a number of states have embraced it. And in a number of European countries.

Why are you hesitant to take the plunge now?

Europe has to jump together if we’re going to do this. Because you don’t want Ireland to become a sort of tourist destination for thrill-seekers or people coming over to use marijuana, because it’s almost like becoming stag party central. And I’m not saying that all marijuana users are like stag party cohorts, not at all – but like Thailand went overnight from all drugs being illegal to pretty much anything goes. And the scenes in the streets were not a pretty sight. They’re backtracking on that now. We should be looking towards Europe and saying, “Let’s get a model that works and one that’s consistent so that we don’t end up being an outlier.”

And what about the decriminalisation of Class A drugs?

I’m not as sure about that. I suppose I have a very loose differentiator in my head – what grows on a tree or grows on the ground is one thing, kind of a naturally occurring substance being consumed by ancient societies and tribes for millennia. You know, the Native American Indians consumed peyote; you could take it from the cactus. Mushrooms in Mexico. You know, different [natural] substances around the world, that’s one thing, right?

The rest are chemicals…

People are going into a lab and mixing up crystal meth or putting pills together with different compounds. That’s quite artificial and can be incredibly potent and quite toxic. And I would be very reluctant to give that any legitimacy. It’s one thing to have a nod to ancient traditions and naturally occurring substances, but legalising crystal meth? No, that’s a bridge way too far.

The UK is introducing an assisted dying bill. Surely we should do the same.

I think it should be very rare, but there should be support there. I’ll go back to the marijuana debate. Like, there was a guy down in Co. Clare who had a couple of cannabis plants in the garden. He was an elderly individual crippled with pain, suffering from cancer. And there was an arrest and prosecution for having plants in the garden. I was thinking, “If this person gets some relief from that, why are we putting him through a court system?” And I suppose an extension of that could be if somebody is in intolerable pain, who are we to step in and say, “No, keep them alive?”

What about the religious argument against euthanasia?

I think if we go back to nature – the opponents of euthanasia talk of a natural life, natural death. But natural death wouldn’t be on a machine pumped up with drugs for 18 months. Like, natural death would have come much sooner. I don’t want to see it commonplace and don’t want to see it regularised, but where there’s a particular need identified, I don’t think we can be judge and jury on what a person chooses to do.

Are you religious?

I’m not religious. I have to confess, I’m not a person of deep faith but I see the comfort that it gives others. I’m not saying I’m not of faith – I’m still trying to figure it out.

Do you believe in heaven and hell?

Not really. I think it’s a bit simplistic. I don’t believe that if we are naughty we’re going to go down to the seventh circle of hell, and others are going to go up to sit on a cloud. I know that’s a very simplistic medieval characterisation. I’d like to believe there’s some kind of afterlife, but I’m not 100% sure. I read about AI and sentience, and I think it’s probably closer to that sort of mindset than those old constructs.

People talk about living on, through their legacy. Would you like to be Taoiseach one day?

Of course. Everybody that stands for election should have ambition. Every councillor wants to be Taoiseach if they’re honest about it. And if they don’t, why are they in the job? I’m only in Cabinet a wet week. But, look, down the line of course everybody that serves the public should be ambitious.

A lot of people are looking ahead in the next four years of Donald Trump’s presidency and wondering, can democracy survive?

I said that the first time he was elected! Obviously, he’s a challenging individual. I suspect he’s going to be more challenging in this presidency. He’s very much a disruptor. I’d be concerned, of course, about some of the measures he’s announced, some of the policy decisions he’s adopted, [and] quite concerned about the traditional ties to Europe and the traditional approach to the west. I’d be concerned about the transatlantic alliance, what that means for Ireland from an economic and investment perspective and doing business and trade, which is so fundamental to our economy. He’s a bit erratic, it seems to me.

Do you see any saving graces in him?

Do you know what? Even though I don’t agree with a lot of his methods and various statements, there is something when he says the system has to speed up. We’re trying to build houses and we’re taking years for planning, for appeals. And meanwhile, people are homeless. We have to get real as a society, otherwise we’re going to regulate ourselves out of existence. I don’t want to see big projects bogged down in red tape.

It’s all out in the open now with regards to Elon Musk effectively declaring himself a fascist, giving fascist salutes, and supporting the AfD in Germany.

It’s a concern. Musk has concentrated in his hands one of the largest online outlets and is using that in a very particular way, based on his political outlook. I do value freedom of expression, but I worry that he’s getting very involved in a lot of politics outside of his circle of influence, and perhaps with limited knowledge of the nuances of those particular dimensions like the AfD.

He’s also talked out of his arse about Ireland on X.

I’ve seen comments he’s made about Ireland and they’re very ill-informed. He’s almost falling for his own trap of reading what’s on social media and taking that as gospel. And that’s a very dangerous road for anyone to go down, particularly somebody with such influence and power as he has.

Should Musk not be seen as a publisher and subjected to the same rules and laws as any publisher?

One hundred percent, absolutely. And not just him, but all the social media platforms. I really don’t get how the social media platforms have managed through lobbying and everything else at the European level and beyond to say, “Well, we’re only a kind of dump terminal. We’re not a publisher. We are a platform. And we have a series of ones and zeros and binary coming up on the screen to render a particular image.” I don’t buy that, because if we think about it, so what they have, what they did have up until recently, was moderators and content checkers – that’s a layer of editorialising.

They’ve the added advantage of algorithms.

They also have ads very carefully crafted to market you to an inch of your life to say, “Well, here’s all the different data points we’ve gathered on you and we’re going to send you a very sophisticated algorithm that’s going to market exactly what we think you want.” So those two things say to me they’re far more than just a kind of dump platform. There’s a discretion, editorial and intelligence, around what they display and why they display them to who. So, I completely agree [they’re publishers] and I think that they need to be held more to account.

And what is your attitude to the way kids are allowed to create social media profiles?

I think social media has possibly got more negatives than positives at this stage. So, I think that [it would be best] if we can keep children away from social media as long as possible. And I think if we can give children a good long run-in so that their learning is developed to the point where they’re doing natural learning, they’re out with nature or their friends or in the classroom or whatever, or their parents – I think that’s enough for that stage of development.

And smartphones?

I think [it would be good] if we can maybe push them back by a couple of years so that they’re not getting a smartphone at 13. I don’t know if it’s a good idea to give a 13-year-old a social media profile or even a smartphone. Maybe an old Nokia so that the parents can ring them when they’re in the playground, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to have them all online. It’s a pretty awful idea if we see the kind of content that they’re exposed to.

So smart phones should be kept out of the classroom.

I totally support the idea of taking the smartphone away in the classroom. I know myself that, in meetings now where I leave my phone at the door, I’m more turned on, I’m more focused, I’m more in the room, I’m more aware. I wouldn’t be otherwise, because we have this tendency to check every couple of microseconds.

So what age do you think kids should be given access to smart phones?

I’d probably go at 16. You have to be realistic, that there’s going to be a tipping point where they’re going to have access anyway. So do you actually just accept that and run with it and put a framework around it? Or do you try and say something artificial, which actually won’t be followed in reality? So I mean, that seems about right.

Where do you stand on the UK bill that will allow AI companies to copy creative work unless people actively opt out?

I’m not familiar with that particular bill in the UK, but from the sounds of what they’re talking about, it does exclude copyrighted work from an AI engine. But there’s pros and cons. If the idea of it is to be a search engine and to pull together mankind’s knowledge and do some kind of analysis around it, in order to work, it needs to have access to that wider pool. So I think we just have to learn to live with it and embrace it. It’s going to happen. And if we’re afraid of it, it’s going to go ahead without us and other societies or other users will just steam ahead anyway.

But does AI not represent a real threat to academia and the world of learning?

Yes and no. If you have to pull the stats, pull the report together, and you’ve done the number crunching, and you just want a machine, you know, is it just an advance on a spreadsheet? Is it just an advance on a computer programme that’s been coded up to pull a certain [set of] stats or a certain algorithm together?

That’s your training in computers talking!

I actually think quantum computing has the potential to be as big, if not bigger, than AI. There’s a lot of exciting developments taking place: supercomputing, quantum computing. It’s an area I want to focus on as well, because a lot of that would be in my department in terms of the research around it. But we can’t be afraid of change. Change is going to happen whether we like it or not. We just need to get onboard, and manage it as far as we can, and embrace it and take the benefits that come with it.

The entire creative community is against AI harvesting their work to mimic, copy or plagiarise it. Would you be with the artists – or would you give AI the power to rob and steal?

I watched the documentary on Spotify a couple of months ago. And at the start of that, the entire creative industry was against letting their music be uploaded to Spotify. And they were like, “This is going to kill us. We’re going to do everything we can to stop it.” It didn’t work, it happened anyway. And actually, now people are getting their money in a different way. The whole model has changed in the industry. I think it’s probably not dissimilar from that.

What are your priorities now that you’ve got your feet under the desk as minister?

We are the land of saints and scholars. Maybe not so much saints anymore, but lots of scholars. We can’t trade on the fact that somebody in Boston had a great-granddaddy back in the auld sod and might throw a factory or throw a research institute here anymore. We need to compete, and we need to be world-class. And what we can do that in, is our skill base. And that brings us back to knowledge, brings us back to education. So, widening the education system, deepening the education system and really turbo-charging investment in research and development and innovation. Because they are the things that will attract foreign direct investment.

Given the ongoing student housing crisis, what concrete steps is the government taking to ensure that affordable and accessible accommodation will be there for students?

I’m obviously new to the role, and I’ve asked for briefings on what we’re doing right across the country. I have asked my department to come back to me with a briefing, in every university or college setting, where we have the student accommodation, and then see is there a way we can get that done faster? I’m actively exploring that. I’m open to suggestions. I’m never going to say I know it all, far from it. I really do welcome inputs, thoughts, suggestions, from people in the industry. And particularly at this early stage, when I’m formulating policy, getting going, and people come to me pitching ideas, I’m all ears. We’ve increased grants massively. I’m very keen that we must build significant student accommodation.

Third level institutions should have been building more accommodation. Would forcing colleges to do that now not be the single best thing you could do for students, with knock-on benefits for society as a whole?

In part, yes. And that’s what I’m doing. But I do want to understand as well, what exactly is involved? And are we getting the best value for money? Are we building the best possible accommodation? Are we over-regulating ourselves perhaps? What are the reasons that have proven so difficult and challenging to deliver to date? Are there ways we can do it faster without losing quality? Is there some regulatory burden that’s adding to the cost? How can we do this better, faster and in a way that delivers for the students? We need to try and ramp up supply for everybody that needs it.

And what about private digs?

I remember queuing up for flats back in my student days. And the minute you heard “12-month lease”, you were gone because we couldn’t afford a 12-month lease, because we were going to be finished up in June. And none of us were in a position to pay rent over July, August, September. But at the time it was, well, 12-month lease or nothing. So we’re looking at 40 odd-week leases in line with the school year.

Many students struggle with tuition fees, high rents and the cost of living. Will the government commit to reducing fees or increasing grants in the next budget?

I’m not going to commit to anything in the budget yet, because we haven’t even got to the stage of having those negotiations in government. I’m going to be looking for funding right across everything: student accommodation, to investing in research – and rolling out further professorships in the technological universities. It is really important that the technological universities are on a par with the traditional universities. There’s so many different competing priorities.

Surely the government needs to pump more money into third-level education.

The maintenance grants have increased by an average of 59% in the last term of government and some of them as much as 121%. We have increased the income thresholds to 84%. We have increased the number of SUSI grant recipients by 10%. We’ve reduced the cost of education significantly in the last couple of years. So, I want to continue to do that and continue to grow that.

We don’t hear enough about apprenticeships.

We’ve increased the number of apprenticeships by a third. I want to roll them out to more areas. People think of apprenticeships as the hard hat, the guy on the construction site, and absolutely that is a big part of what we call craft apprenticeships. But everything from accounting to software to marketing to digital skills can now be delivered through the apprenticeship model.

So what are the plans?

Rolling out more courses. And that goes back to the point you make about cost. It doesn’t always have to be going up to college, spending four years in an institution, maybe away from home. There are other channels to help people get into the system and at every age and stage as well. And that includes gender diversity. We’ve increased the number of females in apprenticeships by close to 70% over the last couple of years. So we’re trying to take away stereotypes, and broaden the access points, whilst never compromising the quality of the education.

There are growing concerns that higher education institutions are prioritising international student recruitment over domestic access.

Yeah, that’s a thorny problem. I understand why it’s happening. Universities and higher educational institutions are under pressure to meet their matching cost bills and to do more things that I’m asking them to do, like give more bursaries and accept lower fee contributions from students, as well as ramping up their research and innovation capacities. So I’ve asked them to do more, not necessarily with less but with the same money that they’ve had. And so if the college can get international students who are paying the full sticker prices, that’s a real financial incentive to them.

Where does that lead you?

The more international students a college can attract, the more revenue they get in, which gives them the money to do everything else they want to do. So how else can they raise revenue? I can give it to them, and the government can give it to them. I think my department spent €4.5 billion last year alone. But there’s always a challenge to do more with it.

What about philanthropy?

Philanthropy hasn’t really taken off in Ireland. You see in the States, people can have Yale baseball caps and Harvard sweatshirts, and that kind of stuff. I’m not sure if we yet have the same degree of affinity with the colleges. We don’t have people bequeathing €100 million to build a gym hall, as you might see in the States. Still, it’s something I think that they’re going to begin to develop.

Student mental health services are underfunded and often involve long wait times. What are you going to do to change that?

I’m going to arrange a meeting with the various student unions over the next couple of weeks. I’m meeting with college presidents, trying to kind of do a bit of a world tour. I was in SETU Waterford and Carlow last Friday. I’m in Sligo this Thursday. I’m in Cork on Friday. You know, every week I get to another couple. I’m trying to get to everybody. But I want to hear the student union perspective on that.

Online education is another uphill battle.

On the mental health side, there’s a quandary around hybrid education. We all find it extremely useful and convenient that we can log in to take the course now. In my day, you sat in the back of the class, took your notes and if you missed a day or two, you might ask your mate to give you the notes and you’d copy them; that was the traditional way. Now, most courses are delivered hybrid online. Some research says that it’s not good for the student experience and it’s not great for student mental health.

In what way?

Students can maybe become a little more isolated and maybe a little more anxious as a result – maybe losing that peer support and that bonding and team building and friendship-making they might have in a more physical setting. So, that’s one of the challenges of modern learning. Social media – there’s pressure on students, pressure on every young person, or not so young. I often wonder if the benefit of social media is outweighed by the negative at this stage.

Tell me more…

It’s become so pervasive. It’s so intense, it’s so always on, it’s so much about eyeballs and demanding clicks and your attention, and attention spans being damaged. You know, even aside from the whole very dangerous kind of disinformation agenda, I just think that the addictive nature of it and the dopamine hit that you get more and more and more likes, etc – I worry what it’s doing to all of our mental health. So, that’s another stressor that young people have to deal with, including many students.

So mental health is a big concern among students…

I suppose, being a student was never straightforward. There was always a complex time in people’s lives, but I think there’s an awful lot more going on now. So, in terms of mental health, we need to get appropriate supports delivered in the right way. And I will be looking to the student unions and others to advise me on that and give me a bit of a steer on what they think we need to do differently.

You sound passionate about your brief.

I think this department has the potential to be a real game-changer economically. One of the things that I’m going to focus on is supporting researchers, supporting innovators. I was in Zurich last week – the world wide web came from an accidental discovery out there. I think penicillin was a by-the-way discovery. Gravity was by-the-way. All of our greatest discoveries have happened that way. The space race created how many extra supplementary inventions?

What lesson do you take from that?

It’s really important that we don’t put a lid on research, and we don’t say, “You can only do this if it leads to immediate job creation or only if it leads to immediate profit.” We have to put smart people with the right resources into a lab or into a library and say, “Be curious and figure it out, and toy around and see what you discover.” So, that’s a big economic enabler. All of humanity’s greatest discoveries occur when that happens. People were curious, started asking questions – and got unexpected answers.