It shouldn't happen to an Archbishop

Here, he talks about life and death issues, including teenage suicide, drugs, homosexuality, suicide bombers and war – along the way accusing the Irish government of compromising themselves on one of the great moral issues of the day.
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His full title is very long and impressive-sounding. How’s about The Most Reverend Dr John Neill, Archbishop of Dublin, Bishop of Glendalough, Primate of Ireland (Republic), and Metropolitan? There, I thought you’d like it!

Archbishop Neill was born in 1945. He comes from a family with a long tradition of religious vocations. In fact, John is the fifth successive generation of this line of the Neill family to become a member of the Church of Ireland clergy: his late father was Canon Bertie Neill.
Appointed as Archbishop in 2002, Dr Neill has been to the forefront of the most significant developments within the Anglican Church. It is widely acknowledged that he played an influential role in the decision to permit women to be ordained when, as chairman of the General Synod Committee on the Ordination of Women from 1988 – ‘91, he proposed the reformation bill.
“Following that, in 1990,” he says, “I steered through the permission for women in Ireland to be ordained to the priesthood – and actually as Bishops as well. In the Church of Ireland, a woman could be elected as a Bishop – it just hasn’t happened yet.”
A father of three, and a member of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches, Dr. Neill is widely respected in international ecumenical circles. In Ireland, as co-founder and chairperson of the Church of Ireland/Methodist Joint Theological Working Party, he has played a pivotal role in ecumenical issues.
Archbishop Neill is passionate about education: a graduate of Cambridge University, he is a former member of the governing body of University College Galway and has also been a member of the Academic Council of the Irish School of Ecumenics. He has lectured in Pastoral Liturgy at the Theological College and in the School of Theology at TCD. He is now the chairperson of the largest boarding school in Ireland, Kilkenny College.
Dr Neill is on the board of Tallaght Hospital, where he is also the President. In recent times he has been highly critical of decisions made by the Minister for Health, Mary Harney, particularly in regard to the location of the new children’s hospital with the Mater Hospital, in Dublin’s north inner city.
In relation to the Pope’s recent assertion that other Christian denominations could not claim to be Churches in the true sense, he has nothing to add to the official Church of Ireland position. Their statement issued in response had an odd ring to it, in that it was strangely reminiscent of the Provisional IRA’s claim to direct succession from the leaders of the 1916 rebellion:-
“With regard to the issue of Apostolic Succession,” it said, “the Church of Ireland traces its origins to the pre-reformation Irish Church founded by St Patrick and regards itself as the successor to the part of that Church that was affected and influenced by the reformation. We regard the Church of Ireland as having full apostolic succession.
“While some may regard the reassertion of the position outlined in Dominus Jesus (and subsequently by the Pope – J.O’T) as reigniting a controversy, it shouldn’t detract from the good relations on the ground and the strides made in recent years to develop understanding.”

Jason O’Toole: Did you have a calling growing up?
Archbishop John Neill: Yes, indeed. My father was a clergyman and I don’t think there was a time when I felt I’d totally lost faith, but I did have questions. There were times I doubted aspects of faith – and there were also times I doubted my vocation – but I was pretty firm in it all the same.
Would you ever consider taking the Armagh job?
I’m in my early 60s. In the Church of Ireland we certainly don’t go on too long – we don’t go on to 75 normally as Bishops (laughs). I certainly have no intention of leaving Dublin before I retire. I have never had any aspirations to move beyond Dublin.
Are you fearful about the future of the Anglican church in Ireland? Less and less people are going to service and the numbers are dwindling.
I think that maybe we will have a trimmer organisation in the years to come. I would also feel that there are a lot of young people who are interested in Christian faith. I think as people mature they often turn to institutions again. I am not despairing in any way. Someone once said that the Church is always one generation away from extinction because it has to propagate itself to a new generation.
It does appears that young people are moving away from organised churches.
I think that young people have a lot of questions about institutional religion and that many are looking for different ways of relating to Christian faith and the traditional church membership. There is a good deal of searching among young people. I think the church has to be very broad in its approach and try different things: working with youth groups and various projects. It is amazing how many young people begin to explore questions of faith through social issues, Third World issues, things like that.
Suicide appears to be a growing problem in Ireland.
I don’t think we can look for any one reason. There are several reasons – addiction is one of the reasons – but I think in a very materialistic society, if you don’t succeed or you are fearful of not succeeding, then there is always the danger that you just say, ‘Well, the whole thing is pointless’. There are a lot of young people who maybe see through the shallowness in a lot of materialism but aren’t able to put anything in its place.
It seems to be young men, rather than women, who are taking their own lives.
That’s a very particular feature of Irish suicides. Ireland has a higher proportion of suicides by young men than anywhere else in Europe. Suicide is something we have spent a lot of time thinking about, as bishops. In one diocese three young schoolboys committed suicide only a couple of weeks ago. And that has made us more alert again. I think that any initiative needs to be very local.
Are you worried about young people taking drugs?
Drugs have become a very major problem – probably with affluence, I suppose. It seems to me that there is a very high toleration of drugs among young people today and a lot of young people seem to regard it as quite natural to dabble.
Do you think marijuana is a serious drug?
I think the problem is that a) it does damage; and b) it also introduces people to that drug culture. And that is one of the most serious things of it all.
Does the apparent increase in binge drinking amongst young people alarm you?
Binge drinking is slightly different from many addictions, but there again it is an escapism. Is this a new symbol of affluence? I’m not sure. The old argument is: at what stage should young people be taught how to handle alcohol? Certainly, many people would feel that this is something that should be handled at home in the first place. If it is made the great taboo subject, then the first thing they do when they get out the door is to drink as much as they possibly can.
Would the Anglican Church perceive pre-marital sex as a sin?
I think that making hard and fast statements about listing things as sins would be less common nowadays. There would be those who speak out clearly saying it is a sin, but I think that we would accept that the majority of those coming for marriage are probably already living together. I feel the ideal – and right place – is for sex within marriage but I certainly would not condemn anybody in a loving relationship.
But what the Church regards as promiscuity is more widespread today.
That I would regard as a sin because it dehumanises people – and people become sexual objects, rather than an individual who is to be respected from a Christian viewpoint. The value of the individual and the nature of the relationship is very important. Promiscuity I would take a very strong line on. But with those in loving relationships – hopefully leading to marriage – I would take a much more liberal viewpoint. The traditional Church teaching would still hold that sex outside marriage is wrong, but I think the reality is that few of us would actually condemn (it). A lot of those things are up to the individual conscience.
Considering the high level of teenage pregnancies in this country, should the Church be promoting the use of contraceptives?
Using contraceptives, by itself, is not the answer. The answer is sex education, and also relationships education. Both of those are very important – that people actually value each other in a relationship. But also there seems to be a great deal of ignorance out there. With sexual promiscuity, alcohol brings down peoples’ defences.
Do you feel Ireland is becoming a more secularised society?
Yes, Ireland has become a more secularised society. I think part of that is the diminution of the power of the Churches – and of the Roman Catholic Church in particular. The sort of hold churches had on Irish society wasn’t always a very good thing – and I think that secularisation by itself is not a bad thing. But if it means that we have no values at all, it is very serious. I would prefer – rather than seeing a society that was dominated by religious institutions – to see a society where religious institutions were able to make a contribution. In a mature society, people must be able to choose for themselves.
Are you surprised by the recent changes in Ireland? For example, there are now lap dancing clubs and things like that…
(Laughs) I didn’t know much about that. It is almost inevitable that we have become part of a wider European society. Unfortunately, we attract the bad things about being part of a broader society as well as the good things. As one Eastern European Bishop said to me, ‘You have got our best people and our criminals’. I think he put it very well. He said those are the two people who go – the worst and the best. We have seen that amongst some Africans and Eastern European people, so that can give people a bad name – just as the Irish got a bad name in Britain at one stage. It must be very hard for many of the new Irish who are trying to make a positive contribution.
What is your stance on the use of Shannon Airport by American military?
I feel very strongly that economic links to America have made us very blind to the moral issues. Many people in Irish society were questioning – and for a while the Green Party were very much to the fore in questioning it – but I think as a nation there has not been sufficient questioning of these rendition flights and the link of Ireland with the war in Iraq, whether we like it or not. I feel that the Irish government have compromised themselves. People will say that politics always has an element of compromise, but I believe one of the chief moral issues of today is the issue of war.
What do you make of the Greens going into coalition with Fianna Fail, particularly considering their stance on Shannon?
I am not a member of any political party and I have never been a supporter of either of those two political parties, but at the same time stable government is something people are seeking. I do feel that it is a very major aspect of the Green flank – that they were opposing Shannon – and it seems extraordinary to me that they were able to swallow it in the end.
What do you think of the money controversies surrounding Bertie Ahern?
I think I am confused, as are most people. All I can say is that I don’t see a very lavish lifestyle of the Taosieach – but I honestly don’t know what is going on (laughs). I think that anybody in public life has to be very transparent in all their dealings – and has to give clear answers when they’re challenged.
Should the Love Ulster parades persist in attempting to march through Dublin?
I am very concerned that one of the negative spin-offs of the marvellously successful peace process in Ireland is that it has linked us, here in the Republic, to conflict situations from Northern Ireland – and I really feel that a ‘Love Ulster’ campaign down in Dublin is asking for trouble. I am very unconvinced that it should take place, because it brings out the worst sort of reaction – that would be my fear. Also, I’m extremely doubtful – having watched the news recently – about the intentions of those involved in the ‘Love Ulster’ campaign. I feel certain that they are not the most moderate of the Northern Ireland political scene.
Do you feel that marching season has in some ways damaged the perception of the Church of Ireland?
I have to make very clear that I have never worked in Northern Ireland, so I haven’t got some of the sensitivities that people would have in Northern Ireland about the whole issue of marching. I feel that the Church of Ireland has been compromised very seriously in the past in Northern Ireland through its links – apparent rather than actual – with the Orange Order. The Orange service system in church are very akin to political rallies. I would say this unashamedly – that the link between Orange-ism and Anglicism is very unfortunate and very damaging to us in the Republic.
What should be done about this?
I think that a distancing – an understanding – has grown both within Orange-ism and the Church of Ireland as to where each stands. There has been progress made since the mid-90s when Drumcree was at its worst, but I have very little sympathy for the way that Drumcree was not handled more firmly at the time.
During the height of the troubles, did you ever feel uneasy or perhaps even unsafe living here?
As Protestants in the Republic, we often felt very grateful to our Roman Catholic neighbours that we weren’t being blamed for the excesses of some of the Protestants in the North. I know that back in the sad days of civil war, and into the ’30s, there were sectarian killings in the Republic but honestly – apart from, very sadly, in the border areas of course – that was never even thought about. The only time I remember – and it taught us a lesson in the Church of Ireland – was Bloody Sunday. I was curate in Kilkenny at the time and when that occurred, the first thing I did – although I was a junior member of staff – I asked that the flags of the regiments which hung in the Cathedral be taken down. And they were never put up again.
Do you feel there will be ongoing harmony in Northern Ireland now?
I do. Northern Ireland to me – I would almost use the word miracle to describe the fact that something finally came together. I was at a gathering recently in the Bishop’s house in Derry with Martin McGuinness and other members of Sinn Fein, plus members of the DUP, and to see the human relationships and the lack of posturing was truly remarkable. I never thought that I would see it. The extraordinary thing is that – unlike any peace process in any part of the world that I have ever read about or seen – it has brought together the extremes. Normally it is the sort of moderates – Unionist Party / SDLP would have been a very natural sort of thing. I always hoped and prayed that would work out. But it is extraordinary that what finally worked out is DUP and Sinn Fein. I am quite staggered by the change in Dr Paisley. Someone once said, ‘Perhaps he has had a near-death experience’. (Laughs) But if it has turned out for the good, thank God for it.
Would you agree that the health service here in the Republic is a joke?
I wouldn’t use the word ‘joke’. I think the health service has very serious problems at the moment. Some of it may not be spending in the right areas. But I do feel that one of the great problems is that we have a huge administrative arm in the health service, and it is those who are delivering the health service – the doctors and nurses and other care workers – that seem to be terribly under-resourced. And there are not sufficient numbers of them. I feel that the service is not up to the standards expected of a country that has progressed economically so greatly in the last decade.
Surely, in that case, reinstating Mary Harney as the Minister for Health was not a good idea?
It seems that the Minister for Health is a poisoned chalice for whoever has it, but certainly I had my differences with Mary Harney. I would hope that there might be some change of direction with the new government. A new government – even with the same people – always has a chance to look at things in a fresh way and I would encourage that. Mary Harney has very good intentions and is determined to do something. But I think that, in the HSE, we have created a monster that will inhibit any Minister from making any real progress.I understand you have grave concerns over the proposed new children’s hospital?
That was one of the areas – or the area – I found myself at loggerheads with Mary Harney. I am very concerned about putting a children’s hospital virtually in the inner city. In this day and age, most major institutions are going out from the inner city. I am also very concerned about the national children’s hospital in Tallaght, with which I am closely connected. I just worry about the future, having one hospital and one paediatric centre. I know that there will be emergency services elsewhere but I don’t think it is going to work out. I suggest there should be at least two centres – systems of government can be sorted between them, sharing resources etc. – but I think the sort of infrastructure that we have, and will have in Dublin for the foreseeable future, does not permit for one hospital in virtually the inner city.
What is heaven like?
I find it very hard to picture what heaven is like because, always for me, talking about the future we resort to the picture language, the poetic. All I can say is that I feel absolutely certain that there is something very real after this life. That future is tied up in God as revealed to us in Jesus Christ. So for me, I see that future as more personal than in terms of pearly gates and rivers and things like this (laughs).
What about hell? Is there an afterlife place for sinners?
I have great difficulty with the idea that, in the end, God’s love and God’s mercy will not have the opportunity of changing people and changing situations. In a way, hell itself is a state of separation from God, but I do have within my faith the idea that in the end God’s love is triumphant. I am certainly not one who gloats over the idea that sinners perish in hell, or that we banish people to hell. I see evil as something to be conquered and overcome by those who have fallen prey to evil.
But let’s look at suicide bombers – do you believe that in the afterlife there is a possibility of redemption for them?
I cannot say, but I would hope that that was a possibility. But at the same time, I believe that it is in this life that we are given the opportunity to come close to God and, for me, that is the urgency of the Christian gospel – to actually present people with the opportunity to have a relationship with God now, that lasts beyond this life. But I do not want to emphasise or to threaten people with the converse of that – that if you don’t meet with God in this life that that is the end as far as God is concerned. I am not God – I cannot say that.
So what would be your thoughts on Henry VIII?
I am not a historian, but when one looks at that whole reformation period there were all sorts of forces at work. A great deal of Henry VIII’s stance was his own religious convictions, which were remarkably Catholic actually and, at the same time, the fact that (in) asserting his independence of Rome – politically – he was also allying with and giving space to reformers, so it was a very complicated time. I don’t see Henry VIII as a founder of Anglicanism (laughs). But he certainly, in the political situation at that time, allowed the reformers to get a very strong foothold in England.
But many of his actions would be classified as sins.
That sort of violence was part of life – and the sort of political expediency outweighs anything we know nowadays (laughs). And of course it was sinful and wrong. Funnily enough, it can be the way that sometimes deeply religious people do the most extraordinary things. To read some of Henry VIII’s spiritual writings or collections is quite amazing set against his actions – not least having people beheaded.
Should all religions be classified as equal?
No. I believe that one can assert the primacy – the distinctiveness – of one’s own faith and the faith tradition to which one belongs. But that should not lead to having to denigrate other faiths: in as much that they are searching for the living God they have a validity, and also God may reveal himself through them to some extent. I honestly cannot make extremely negative statements about other faiths, but I would assert to the primacy of the Christian faith.
But would you say that certain modern faiths would deserve profound respect? For example, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Moonies, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, and…
There we are talking more about sects, and I think they tend to be personal cults – founded by individuals with a very distinct agenda of their own – and usually hanging on the edge of one of the other major religions. So I wouldn’t see them as being the same as a great world faith – like Islam and Judaism, which have very close links with Christianity. Maybe we should be talking about the other way around – that Christianity has links with Judaism. I wouldn’t see the examples you mentioned in quite the same category; I would see them more in the area of cults.
If you look at Scientology, for example, it is banned in Germany. Should the Irish government look at setting up a committee to examine banning some of what you call cults?
I don’t know much about Scientology, to be quite honest. A government has to be very careful that it doesn’t become a persecutor of peoples’ individual faiths – but at the same time, of course, the government may have certain responsibilities of something becoming a very subversive force in the nation. But that can go against any of the world religions in any context. I mean, Islam could suffer that in some western countries and Christianity definitely suffers that in Islamic countries. What I am saying is, if the government becomes the keeper of people’s minds you have to be very careful where you draw the line on that one.
Since September 11 2001, the western world has perceived the Islamic religion in a negative light.
Islam needs to have a debate within itself because sometimes the face of Islam that we see is a very frightening face – and yet we know there is a deeply spiritual religious face of Islam, and one that is extremely moderate. Much of the Koran is extremely moderate, but Islam really needs to get together how it is presenting itself to the world today.
What do you make of Tony Blair converting to Catholicism?
Firstly, I haven’t actually seen it confirmed anywhere. Tony Blair, his wife and family are very much a Christian family – and his wife and family are Roman Catholic. And if they want to worship together I would see that as a very natural move for Tony Blair. I think that too much can be made of these high profile conversions, because there are a lot of people today who are prepared to make up their own mind about the faith to which they belong. I am not into any numbers game but I can tell you about countless people who went the other way. But, at the same time, there have been a few high profile conversions in England to Roman Catholicism and that’s always been the case.
If you were a Catholic, do you think that perhaps you might have been reluctant to fulfil your calling and become a priest due to the fact that you would have been unable to marry?
I would say ‘yes’ because I see myself very much as a family man. We have three sons – one is a priest, one is a member of the Gardai and one is an IT specialist. It is very hard to put oneself in a totally different setting, but I am very aware of – and I have come across over the years – a large number of Catholics with a strong sense of vocation who did not feel called to celibacy, and wished to have a normal family life. I feel very strongly for them. Quite a number of them are in the Anglican ministry as a result (laughs). Others who remain absolutely convinced that they are Roman Catholics, friends who I know, had a vocation, and yet have been unable to fulfil it. So I think it is very sad.
Do you feel that the Catholic Church should consider allowing women to be priests?
I think most Christian churches have had to look at it, but the Orthodox Church in the East and the Roman Catholic Church in the West have stayed steadfastly against it. I feel it will come one day, but I suppose what will come first is a married priesthood.
The Catholic Church does not like to discuss how the Virgin Mary was in fact sexually active and bore several children.
As Anglicans, some of my colleagues are very strong on emphasising this – we don’t have any difficulty with the fact that our Lord had brothers and sisters who are children of Mary and Joseph. I think that, in a way, it can be a very negative attitude towards sexuality that has created some of those problems – looking for ways around the fact that there might have been other children. I do not see the family life in any way second to celibacy.
Is the Catholic Church wrong in portraying Mary in this way?
As Christians we have emphasised the fact of Mary being conceived by the Holy Spirit, and of her virginity. The difference between the Roman Catholic Church and other churches is the idea of perpetual virginity. We find that there is no particular virtue in that because we don’t see virginity of itself – don’t get me wrong when I say this – within marriage, of having any particular value. It is simply pointing to the uniqueness of Jesus Christ.
Should the Irish government introduce legislation to allow homosexual couples to marry?
I am very convinced that marriage is between a man and a woman, but I am not against the idea of civil partnerships. I dislike the use of the word ‘marriage’ in connection with gay relationships. At the same time, I acknowledge that in society there are gay relationships and many of them are very stable and very loving relationships and it seems to me that they should be given many of the civil rights, such as inheritance rights, pension rights, and all the rest that one would assume within marriage. I am very anxious that society should not discriminate against such relationships – but I do not feel they should be accorded the status of marriage.
So you feel that doing so would be an insult to the concept of marriage?
I think so, because marriage is a special, unique relationship between a man and a woman – and that is something the Church feels from a sacramental angle, biblically and theologically. But that doesn’t deny that there can be other human relationships – and let’s leave out the whole issue of gay practises, that’s not the question.
What about homosexual Bishops in the Church – would you have a problem with that? For example, in the case of Bishop Gene Robinson in America…
This is a major issue in the Anglican Church at the moment worldwide. It is a major issue basically because a Bishop is supposed to be a centre of unity and somebody who can hold the Christian community together in a place, and also link that Christian community with the Christian communities in other parts of the world. The Church at large - either in America, and certainly not on a worldwide basis - has not come to terms with gay relationships. It is at the least premature for a person to be in a gay relationship and appointed as a Bishop, so that creates particular problems, though in his local context he (Bishop Robinson) was chosen and there is no doubt that he is a very highly respected Bishop.
Surely that’s all there is to it?
But there are difficulties. One of the difficulties is the rather different attitudes that Americans have compared with many Europeans. In America people can accept it, but in Europe it is extremely difficult. In some ways that really didn’t matter to Americans, and I suppose I see something of a George Bush mentality in the Church in America.
Would it really be a problem if a Bishop in Ireland were to be openly gay?
I don’t think it would be even vaguely acceptable. Not vaguely acceptable. I think it would split the Church from top to bottom. I would feel that a gay Bishop would not be able to be a centre of unity, particularly since as a Church we have said that gay relationships are not what we see as the ideal.
Would homosexual couples adopting a child be acceptable?
That is an issue that has been very big in Britain of course, and it hasn’t hit us here yet. I find it difficult to accept but, at the same time, there are single people who have adopted and there are many single parents bringing up children – and to call those homes less than ideal would be a very serious slur on them. While there have been a shortage of children for adoption generally over the last decades, it would seem more appropriate that they be placed in homes with a father and a mother. To have that balance in their upbringing. I don’t honestly know how – if civil partnerships are established within a community – a rule could be in place that discriminates against them. So there are difficulties there, and I think those have been seen in Britain already.
Does the Anglican Church perceive homosexuality as a sin?
The official position of the Church is that homosexual people are accepted but those who are ordained should abstain from sexual relationships.
In a recent interview with Hot Press, Ian Paisley Jnr. told me that he was “repulsed” by homosexuality. How do you feel about that comment?
I feel it was homophobic and I feel it was very hurtful to a significant proportion of the population. For a heterosexual person it may be very hard – it is very hard – to understand homosexual activity, but to describe any sexual activity as repulsive was an unfortunate, unkind and cruel remark.
Is abortion acceptable?
As a Church, our statements over the years have been strict medical necessity and therefore we obviously see the life of the mother as paramount – so that is vital. But sometimes – and not in any official statement – we have interpreted medical necessity as including cases of rape and incest. And several individual Bishops over the years – I think including myself – have made statements saying that in the case of rape or incest we feel that it is totally justifiable. But not as a means of family planning.

Photos: Emily Quinn