“Look, this is bothering me a bit. Can I just say at the very beginning that I’d really rather not talk about my son in this?”

As Minister of State for Labour, Trade and Consumer Affairs, Fianna Fail’s Tom Kitt is perfectly happy to talk to hotpress – though he’s a tad suspicious as to the reasons why the music magazine would be particularly interested in talking to him. It wouldn’t be anything to do with the fact that his eldest son, singer/songwriter David Kitt, has just released a critically acclaimed album called The Big Romance on Blanco Y Negro (which scored an impressive first preference count of eleven on the dice, last issue), he immediately probes, when greeting me with a warm handshake in a meeting room in Leinster House.

“No, not at all,” I lie (well, whitely), “we just want to find out what kind of guy you are.”

“That’s fair enough,” he smiles, relieved. “We love him very much and we’re incredibly proud of him but he’s got his career and I’ve got mine, and I’d really like to keep them separate.”

And this he manages to do, for a while at least. When I open the interview by asking him to describe in a nutshell exactly what it is that his job entails, I’m treated to an uninterrupted three minutes of worthy but dull political spin(dry) on subjects as diverse as consumer affairs, the Euro and trade unions, to copyright legislation, the price of concert tickets and the importance of Health and Safety in the workplace. Somewhat charmingly, it doesn’t take too long before his obvious paternal pride gets the better of him and, before our hour is out, he’s raving about the boy they call “Kittser.”

Not that his singer son’s burgeoning fame is the only interesting thing about Kittser Snr (or “Kittsnr”, as he should perhaps be known). Far from, in fact. A native of East Galway and a former primary school teacher, he has been a member of the Dail – representing Dublin South – since 1987 (following in the footsteps of his brother and late father, both monikered Michael) and has been slowly but steadily in the ascent ever since.

Neither unhandsome nor unhealthy and still the right side of fifty, he is regarded as one of the “glamour-boys” of Fianna Fail – sharing the limelight with Jim McDaid and, em… well, let’s put it like this: if all the Fianna Fail “glamour boys” were to form a boy band, they’d be a Wham! rather than a Westlife. But he’s more than just a pretty face. He can also play the guitar.

Although he has yet to break into the Fianna Fail Top Twenty, he has served in various posts at ministerial level since the early 1990s and has earned a reputation as a shrewd, sharp and extremely capable politician – and one who’ll almost certainly be Harlem-shuffling upwards in the near future, if FF survive the next election in government.

You can see why. Throughout our talk, he’s friendly and comes across as a genuinely nice guy but he’s also open like a sharp switchblade – speaking his mind, but twisting neither the knife nor his words.

OLAF TYARANSEN: You’ve just set up a taskforce on bullying in the work force, haven’t you?

TOM KITT: Yeah. They just reported to me last week and we’ve a series of measures now that we’re going to pursue on the codes of practise on basically how people relate to each other in the workplace. My approach to the workplace is that I’m not expecting people to like everyone they work with, but we’re saying that it is important that you respect each other and treat each other with dignity. That’s the bottom line. So that’s been a successful initiative, in my view.

Listening to Des O’Malley’s comments on television the other night about the way Fianna Fail operated under Haughey, it didn’t sound like people in here were treating each other with much dignity and respect…

Well, I came in here in 1987.

But your father was in here before you, wasn’t he?

My father was a Fianna Fail TD back in Jack Lynch’s time. Towards the end of his career he was appointed as Minister of State by Jack Lynch with responsibility for the Gaeltacht area. We were then living in Galway, East Galway. I was at St Jarlath’s in Tuam, boarding school in Tuam. I was born closer to Ballinasloe, East Galway – let’s say the less exciting part of Galway, but I’ve great memories of that area. But on the question of Charles Haughey, I came in here in 1987 – not long before he went.

Did you know him well?

I was made chairman of Ogra Fianna Fail by Mr Haughey. I obviously admired all the great things he’d done in Dublin, particularly the Financial Services, Temple Bar, his position on the Arts and so on. But I have to say I was one of the new round of deputies that actually voted against him and challenged the kind of leadership that he was involved with. I did say at the time that I found it too much of a closed type of leadership and there was too much of a golden circle there.

Do you think that the golden circles are now gone from Irish politics and from Fianna Fail?

There are always people – because it’s the largest party – that want to, if you like, buy their way into the system. I myself feel that the legislation is there now – but the answer to your question is that there are obviously still people who think they can do that. But I really feel that we have cracked that nut.

Fully?

You’ll never fully crack it, I suppose, in any democracy. But I actually feel that we’ve gone an awful long way with all of the ethics legislation – we all have now to declare, for example, any contribution one gets at election time for over £500. I think that’s very healthy. I myself would be one of the many deputies who would like to think we lead modest lives within a semi-detached house, whatever. We’ve the ordinary problems of the ordinary people. I come from a background of teaching. I don’t apologise for that. In fact, I’m privileged that I have the background I have. So therefore a lot of us represent the ordinary person’s way of life. That’s the way we want to continue. We want our party to be like that. And I think to be fair to our boss-man, Bertie Ahern, he epitomises that sort of approach to Irish politics.

Didn’t Charlie Haughey once say that Bertie was the most Machiavellian of them all?

Well, you see a guy like Bertie Ahern up close, meeting with the highest leadership in China – we’ve just been over – and articulating modern Ireland’s stance. In that case we were promoting software companies that were over with us. You see him doing that and then you see him back home in Ireland, literally being as he is, whether it be down having a beer with some of his colleagues; when you see that all-embracing kind of person you realise that it does take a very special person to become leader, because it basically depends on the votes of all his colleagues, his peers. So it takes a lot of skill, abilities to become leader. And he’s answered comments himself on his involvement with Mr Haughey during his time as Chief Whip of the party.

Some of them…

But the bottom line is he’s come through as the current leader! He’s our greatest trump card now, even in comparison with other leaders who are here like Noonan and Ruari Quinn. There’s no question, in my view anyway, that he’s our trump card.

And who would you say is your weakest link?

(Laughs) In our own party? I’d never obviously… I don’t see it… (pauses). I think we’re working very hard at the moment. We’ve done an awful lot of work picking candidates throughout the country. Like in my own constituency we’ve picked out a team for the next election, which we do envisage taking place next year. So we’ve been building up good candidates through local councils. If you look at some of the younger people coming through in the last election – even in Dublin, loads of people have come through – and effectively they’re the people you go to when you’re looking for your candidates for the next election.

What would you say is the public perception of Fianna Fail at the moment? The party has obviously been damaged in recent years.

Yeah. I never take the public for granted with regard to the perception of Fianna Fail. I think that’s the first thing. If you start doing that you could easily go under. You start by looking at your own constituency. You had a situation where in one election a Labour candidate, Eithne Fitzgerald, went from something like 17,000 in one election down to 4,000 and lost her seat. She happens to be a good friend of mine, different party. So therefore you can’t ever underestimate the electorate. Now, it’ll vary from constituency to constituency.

Where are you most vulnerable?

Fianna Fail are vulnerable in situations where people are delving into the past, or whatever. So that period of looking back at the Tribunals and what happened with Mr Haughey, etc, we’re vulnerable there, but we’ve done an awful lot of work to put all these tribunals in place. We’ve opened up this system. I think we’ve opened up the party, the fund-raising side of it. And I think there’s a much more open system in place now, in every sense of the word.

Do you have any business interests?

No, that’s one thing I haven’t done. A lot of business friends of mine would say, ‘my God, if you could put the same energy into a business you could be doing well for yourself’. But I’m committed to politics. Full stop.

Indefinitely?

Not indefinitely, no. I’m 48 now, so one has to look at the future.

Did your father have any business interests outside of politics?

No. My father was of that school of, you know, committed. He had a background of teaching as well. And he was a full-time politician. He sadly died at 59 years of age and we were a big family of eight so, to that extent, he didn’t have a life after politics. He died as a member of Dail Eireann and a Minister of State. So there isn’t that background. But having said that, one would always question – especially when you’re under major pressure in here – that there is another way I could have pursued. But I haven’t done that.

Were you ever offered or did you ever receive a brown envelope?

No, no, no (laughs). In relation to fundraising and election time…

Did you ever panic and look back on your own election campaigns and say ‘Oh God, was there anything?’

No, with all the kind of fundraising one does, you have certain people in charge of that. You do need funds, quite frankly; the elections are expensive and when you don’t have another business…

Believe me, I know. I ran in the last election.

Oh, did you? Well you know the situation then (laughs). So you will get contributions. I remember a sizeable contribution I got once – and I would have divided I think maybe a third to myself and the rest to party headquarters.

How sizeable was it?

About £500 or whatever. But you have to be very vigilant in that area. Personally, I think it’s much more appropriate – and everybody wins – if you keep your fundraising at a modest level. For example, keep your fundraising anything from £10 to £500. They’re the kind of funds that I think are appropriate. In that case, nobody is buying into power. And, equally, I think it’s better for the politician involved.

You have to be straight up about funding. I mean there’s a certain amount of hypocrisy around where you have now the Labour Party and the Fine Gael party trying to climb up the high moral ground to tell us that they would be cleaner and they would bring in even tighter legislation, with regard to corporate finance and private finance. I don’t think there’s much difference between the two, as long as it’s at a modest level and as long as it’s declared. So that’s the way forward. I think the public are quite happy if they see exactly where the money’s going.

What’s your attitude towards the Irish media generally? Do you think any good people have been hounded out of office by the media?

Yeah. I would have a lot of sympathy for certain individuals…

How about Beverly Cooper-Flynn?

Including Beverley Cooper-Flynn. Especially when I heard what she had to say to the Parliamentary Party. She went into some detail with regard to the background to her case.

Do you think she made a mistake in suing for libel?

Well, clearly she did in the context of the costs involved (smiles sympathetically). But in relation to media in general, here especially, I think you never stop learning with regard to involvement in media. It goes without saying that media is an important arm of this democracy. It can be very useful from the politician’s point of view, if you want to get your message across clearly. It’s good that if you have something to say and it’s worthwhile saying, that people will report it. Equally, investigative journalism has been very strong in this country. So I respect the media. You learn from individual experiences.

What’s been your own worst experience?

Well I’ve had a few but I’d probably be better off not to mention them! They’re probably down to individual journalists and you realise at the end of the day that some journalists think they’re onto something or they have a colour item or something to report – and they can be very aggressive. And I think every politician would have an experience of an aggressive journalist. That’s part and parcel of journalism. We’re all aware, from the Taoiseach down, of people on our doorstep. That’s fine. But you will have journalists with their own agendas for whatever reason. They might dislike you. So once you can put that to the back of your mind in dealing with the media, then you can proceed.

Do you personally feel any anger or resentment towards individuals who have brought the party into disrepute?

Some of the politicians who have brought the party into disrepute, I would know. I know Liam Lawlor well, over the years. He’s another ordinary person who, in a party meeting, would make some tremendous cases for disadvantaged communities in his own constituency, and would have contributed to lots of policies.

Did you visit him in prison?

Well… no (laughs). But I think the system is there to deal with all these situations. You would naturally have sympathy for individuals in those kind of situations. They go through the process and they come out the other end. I’ve met Liam Lawlor in here and would have talked to him about all sorts of things since then. No, I would be of the view that we have enquiries and tribunals there to look after all of these issues and if the public are satisfied with that, then fine. Irish people, by nature, are not in the business of walking all over people. I’m not, certainly. Let them get on with their work and, if there’s something wrong, people will have to suffer the consequences.

You’re very diplomatic! Have you ever done anything like a Carr Communications course?

I’m not a great believer in all of that. I did that in the early days – we were all sent off to the training course (laughs). I think they actually do damage to politicians. Again, maybe it’s no harm to go through the process of doing one of those courses – if only to show you how wrong they can be! I think, from experience, the most important part of media for any politician is to try and get yourself and your own personality across to the public. Some of those communication schools will actually try and make you bland, make you safe and put you into a box. And from my memory of some of these courses, they will actually try and suggest to you that if you’re on a TV programme for five or ten minutes and you come out with a nil-all draw – then you’ve won.

Teach you the art of saying absolutely nothing, at length?

Exactly. And you’ve survived an interview. I don’t believe in that. I think a lot of those courses actually train you to survive, which is really a load of nonsense.

Do you think that dealing with kids when you were a primary teacher might have trained you better for politics? Just in the sense that young kids can be very direct and you can’t really spoof them!

Funnily enough, I was at a local school this morning (laughs). The teacher introduced me as Tom Kitt, TD. It was fourth class, in fairness. And he said, “can anyone tell me what TD stands for?” And there was silence. And the teacher was slightly embarrassed and said, “are you sure nobody knows?” And someone said ‘Taxi-driver, sir!” (laughs). I enjoy that rapport. We have great fun. Kids are honest, so straight up and the best rapport you can have is when they question you. If you go in and presume that they’ll know everything about governments and the business of government, you’ll be presuming wrong. You have to communicate.

As an individual, do you ever find it frustrating that you have to tow the Fianna Fail line on certain issues where you might not necessarily agree with the party line?

Absolutely. That’s the toughest thing in here, I have to say. And even as Minister of State at times you’d like to be able to do much more and you’ve got to sometimes fit in with the Government’s position. We’re in a partnership as well with the Progressive Democrats. I have to say I would consider Mary Harney to be a friend. We are in the same department. She’s the Tanaiste but there are times when there would be policy divergences, and I would have to say that there’s great mutual respect in the manner in which she would deal with me on those issues. But there are times that you may not have the same precise view as your colleagues.

Like when?

One recent one was the licensing laws in Dublin. I would favour further liberalisation and my colleague, John O’Donoghue, has gone so far with the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, which now allows you to extinguish your licence in the country and use it in Dublin. I would go further, in light of the need to move on the whole question of competition in Dublin. It’s not healthy. I’ve put forward the idea of continental-style café bars. I think we need more of those – especially with this great sunny weather (gestures out the window). Just that whole idea of a more healthy drinking environment where you have food and drink.

Do you like a drink yourself?

I do. There’s nothing I enjoy as much as good conversation over a couple of drinks. My wife Jacinta is a brilliant cook. And we particularly enjoy entertaining at home. I mentioned before you started taping that we had a big Sunday lunch the other day. We had friends around for a 3 o’clock late lunch which went on into the late hours – the very late hours (laughs). Good company, a drink, music, whatever. Stimulating conversation – that’s my ideal way of passing the hours. I go to films and theatre a lot as well. I went to Captain Corelli’s Mandolin last night and enjoyed it a lot.

You were responsible for the Arts before weren’t you?

That’s it. I was Minister of Arts and because of that I still get invited to opening nights (laughs). I always try my best to get there.

Do you think politics is an unhealthy profession?

Physically, I think it is. There are so many pressures on politicians. From my point of view, I enjoy the legislation side, the Department of Trade missions, the involvement in a modern Irish economy where there are so many good things happening. There are a lot of highs. The negatives are that you have to constantly look over your shoulder at your constituency and say, “am I doing enough?” So there can be pressure and you wonder if you’re giving your constituency enough time.

The kind of pressure that could drive you to drink?

I suppose there was always a theory that a lot of TDs ended up drinking in the Dail bar. That’s not as common now as maybe years ago. I think most people in here are very professional about it and get down to their work. Like anybody else, we’ll enjoy a drink when we can slot it in. It certainly goes with the job, in that you are out and about. A lot of your meetings take place in pubs. We’ll meet in The Goat in Goatstown. We have our monthly meetings there and you’d often have a few drinks afterwards. I try to do some exercise to compensate for that.

You’ve run a few marathons, haven’t you?

I have actually run about ten marathons. That was up to 1996. I did most of them in Dublin, but I did Boston, Berlin and Belfast as well. But that was mainly in opposition days when I had more time. So what I try to do now is get into Marlay Park, which is near me. That’s almost like a sanctuary. It’s a most beautiful park and I do a figure of eight run through the trees and just get away from it all. You might manage that on a Sunday morning. And I get out there the odd time with my Walkman early in the morning.

What would you have on the Walkman?

Anything from my son’s music (smiles) to some classical as well. I find it very soothing. But it could be James Taylor to American country rock. I literally would hand-pick music that I like that’s relaxing.

You play the guitar, don’t you?

I do. I picked up the guitar when I was in St Jarlaths at boarding school. There was a teacher who introduced me to the guitar in third year. I became so excited with this guitar. I learned the usual few chords and probably played a few Beatles’ numbers or whatever was popular at the time. And I hardly ever left it down, then. Later on a few of us from Jarlath’s formed a bit of a group and when I went to teaching college we formed initially a ballad group. We went into the Kilkenny Beer Festival. The name of the group was Twelfth Night. And a few of us formed a group then, when we started off our teaching. We played at 21st s, and weddings and stuff. And we did a few gigs around the place. So I played guitar and I played bass guitar for a while when our bass player got tired of it and just upped and left. And I taught guitar in school as well, acoustic guitar.

Did you ever write any original material?

Very little. I wrote a song once about Sellafield, some kind of protest song. It was reasonably OK.

So you were a protest singer!

(Laughs) I didn’t apply myself to writing, but I always enjoyed and still do enjoy playing the guitar.

I know you don’t really want to talk about him but, as a musician yourself, do you find yourself living vicariously through David’s career?

I taught him his first few chords on the guitar. He was very young at the time and he was quite clearly very focused on music. So from my point of view, almost from a selfish point of view, I take tremendous pride in what he’s doing.

Are you worried about him being in the music business?

Yes, I would have concerns but he’s a very strong, determined person. He’s involved in every element of his music. He’s very creative, obviously. He’s involved personally, not just in the singing, but the writing, production, recording, even a lot of the artwork – the cover of his new album for example. So we’re aware of that. But he has a very good manager in Oliver Walsh and Warner Brothers are obviously looking after him. It’s early days now.

Do you like the album?

Yes, of course (laughs). Jacinta and I and the whole family are very proud of him. We’ve got all the albums and we also hear little previews of what he’s doing. For example, on Sunday he just took up the guitar and played. And I remember standing backstage at the Olympia when Beth Orton was here, and he was warming up and he played ‘Step Outside’. There was a rather large lump in my throat and I remember saying ‘oh my God’. His music is very personal and emotional. That was a moment in time I’ll always remember. I think I had Robbie with me. I was his kind of minder backstage. But there are moments along the way when I think this is a very special talent here. We’ve all experienced that but it’s not just me, it’s his mum. He talked a lot to his mum. Advice-wise his head is together. But I would say that, yes, I would always be concerned.

As a public representative, are you worried that he would embarrass you in interviews?

No. It’s his life. That’s one concern I have and I’m commenting on it here because you guys at hotpress would have a very good understanding of it. I’m very concerned that he has his own career, it’s his creation and he does his own thing. As far as I’m concerned all the decisions are his. If he wants to come to us for advice or a chat, he’s always welcome. I do meet him for a pint and I enjoy that. It’s a fantastic way for me to get away from politics for even those few moments. I really love his company and listening to him. I love to listen to him perform and I have no concerns… my only concerns for him are that he minds himself and that he’s minded by others. And I’m confident that’s OK.

What age is he?

He’s 25. It’s like anybody in that situation. It doesn’t happen overnight and it’s only happening still. I think The Big Romance will be huge (laughs) And there’s even stuff I’ve heard beyond Big Romance. He sang a song on Sunday and… (pauses) they’re very strong personal messages, almost. I describe his music as very late-night listening, you maybe want to reflect on your own life listening to his lyrics. I’m just delighted he’s doing what he’s doing.

You went to MIDEM this year, didn’t you?

I did. I was delighted to be there because I got an understanding of the music industry in its totality, not just singer/songwriters, but also performers, publishers, all of those involved in the broad spectrum of the music industry. I also went to tell the good story about our copyright legislation which I brought in. And certainly that was well overdue. We were being criticised by the Americans and others that our legislation was antiquated. We now have some of the most modern technology and updated legislation. We’ve a good strong copyright legislation. I’m also introducing some industrial design legislation which is, again, something that the industry has very much welcomed.

You’ve spoken out in favour of deregulating the licensing laws for alcohol. Given Pat Byrne’s recent statement acknowledging the medicinal benefits of marijuana, what’s your attitude towards something like cannabis legalisation?

Obviously there are lots of arguments made from the medical point of view. I’d certainly see that there’s a case for that, on a medical basis, if it gives people some comfort.

Have you ever smoked a joint yourself?

Going back to the days in the US when I was a student! Yeah! (laughs).

Did you enjoy the experience?

Oh yeah, certainly. It would’ve been… when did I say I was a student? (laughs) In the 1970s, in the US. Obviously I was no different from any other student.

It’s recently been decriminalised in Belgium. Do you think it’ll eventually happen over here?

I don’t really think so. I would go as far as in medical circumstances. That’s as far as I would go.

Are you a practising Catholic?

I wouldn’t be very… how will I put it? I’m a Catholic but I’d be more Christian-oriented than Catholic, in a sense. But I have great respect for lots of people in the Catholic Church. I’m practising but not as regularly as I’d like to be.

You won’t be going to see the relics of St Thérèse then?

I’m very impressed with the number of people who have gone to see her. In my own local area there were massive queues of cars. I admire people who are religious. I suppose I would see myself as more spiritual. It’s a very important part of my life and I would have respect for other religions as well. In my travels abroad, I’d encounter Buddhism and other religions – where people have huge commitment and great belief. And I’m very open to other religions. I think the Catholic Church have some tremendous people in there. I have great friends in the Church of Ireland in my own local community. So I have an open mind on other religions.

What do you think of Michael Noonan’s performance as Fine Gael leader?

I’m somewhat disappointed really – from his point of view (laughs). But I look at issues such as the lack of support for our National Stadium. I support that issue but I certainly think it involves a category of visionary planning.

It’s been described as an act of ego, an arrogance on Bertie Ahern’s part. The Bertie Bowl…

Again, I would totally refute that, knowing Bertie Ahern. He’s not that type of person and he genuinely and passionately believes in this. And I’m glad he does because I think there’s a need now to leave a legacy for the people of Ireland. It’s much more than a stadium.

Do you think it’s morally right to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a football stadium when there are literally thousands of people homeless on the streets of Dublin and, indeed, all over the country?

I think that’s an obvious argument that people will make and you can probably make it about any project that’s outside social and educational areas. Government Buildings would be one example as well and the Financial Services Centre. There’s all these things that you could find ten reasons not to go ahead with. I think it falls into that category. I think we should proceed. But on this issue, I think Michael Noonan has shown a lack of vision. They haven’t really come up with an alternative on it. That’s only one example, but I think the fact is that it’s very hard for anyone to get the better of Bertie.

Do you expect Sinn Fein to perform well in the next election?

Yes, I do. I’m conscious they’re very active on the ground. We talked earlier about the pressures one is under in the constituency to make sure you’re working hard on the ground and I think they’re very good there. So I’m conscious that they will be strong. So we’re not taking them for granted, but again we would ask people to look at the broad range of things that we’ve done. We have effectively helped Sinn Fein in the North with regard to the Peace Process. But when it comes to constituencies, we’ll be taking them on, in a head to head situation here.

Now that Martin McGuinness has finally admitted to having been a leading figure in the IRA, do you think that he should be made to answer for some of the atrocities committed during his tenure as a top terrorist?

Well, I welcome the fact that he’s… delved into that area. It’s always been a grey area for Northern people, the Republican movement. And I think that it’s good that people open up into their past. But there are Inquiries to look into that particular issue, the whole Bloody Sunday event and the horrific atrocities that took place around that event. I’d welcome the fact that he has done that.

But should he be made to do more?

I’m not in the business of witch hunts. I’ve worked with Martin McGuinness and I’ve met Gerry Adams and many of the Sinn Fein politicians. I applaud them for the way they’ve progressed in the party. They have shown huge leadership. Politics is about bringing people forward as well and bringing people with you. And I’m very conscious that they’re still doing that. And we have been hugely supportive in the past. So I wouldn’t be in favour of witch-hunting in that sense.

Your brief includes responsibility for Labour. We need, what, 200,000 new workers in Ireland?

200,000 over the next four or five years, yeah.

Given that there’s a chronic shortage of workers, do you think we’re being too tough with our immigration laws?

Well my area of responsibility is really to ensure that immigrant workers are treated the same as Irish workers. Again I’m reviewing the legislation in that area to ensure that they are being well looked after. Sometimes some of them have come in here and paid fees to intermediaries and that’s illegal. The employer is supposed to pay the agency. We have also given instructions to our Inspectorate to make sure they investigate any complaints straight away. There are lots of problems that have emerged in certain work places. So I am concerned about that. But you can be assured that we’ll apply the law firmly and we’ll improve the law.

What’s your attitude to Aine Ni Chonaill?

I’ve heard her views and I think they’re off the wall. The bottom line is that we have been the victims of that policy in other countries for decades now. We are now in the privileged position where we can actually be a much more open and tolerant society. And I think we’re the last people in the world that should pursue that.

Coming from a political family, what’s the best piece of advice you’ve ever been given regarding politics?

Em… (pauses thoughtfully). Well, the first thing is to be proactive rather than reactive. But the best advice I would say is ‘do the right thing’. Jacinta would always be my best advisor there. You’re fortunate if you’ve got somebody outside the system you can talk to and get some advice. That’s the bottom line for everybody here. Do the right thing!