Dana is looking decidedly below-par and even shell-shocked as she sits down in the reception area of Jury s Hotel to do this interview. Not only is she fighting a flu , she also is pretty incensed by her treatment at the hands of Vincent Browne on his RTE radio show the evening before.
She points to The Irish Times which features an article under the headline Complaints Roll In After Dana Interview and quotes the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown Councillor, Richard Greene, saying that Dana was treated with absolute contempt by Browne and that none of the other candidates are being subjected to the same sort of abuse.
Although he subsequently apologised, Vincent Browne s reaction is still probably representative of a wider response to the notion of Dana-Rosemary Scallon as a candidate for the role of President of Ireland. The media, generally, have hardly been sympathetic and Dana, as she explains in this interview, has a particular grievance about coverage of her presidential candidacy in this magazine. Then again, one can easily understand why so many people are wary of a woman who once won the Eurovision. And, maybe less threateningly, who has a God-slot chat show on Mother Angelica s cable television channel in her hometown of Alabama. And who has declared that her Presidential vision of Ireland is of a nation united under God.

Joe Jackson: Vincent Browne apparently originally said you had to be nominated then annihilated. Did you feel he was trying to annihilate you on his radio show?
Dana: Yes. From the outset, his very first question, when he didn t even welcome me onto the show, say Hello or tell me the microphone was turned on. I also felt what I was facing was intolerance dressed up as liberalism. He is supposedly a liberal? He s a pseudo-liberal who wanted not to hear my opinion even though I answered his questions. All he wanted were the answers he wanted to hear. He wasn t actually interested in what I was saying.
Did you feel there was an element of intellectual bullying involved, as in Vincent Browne attempting to show you up as a fool?
I did. And there was a bully-boy tactic involved. But then, maybe that is part of his technique, to try to belittle you. But it doesn t work on me. Because I know that while it was directed at me it was aimed more at what he thought I stood for. And if nothing else, my candidacy has highlighted those areas we need to examine in Irish society. As in, asking ourselves are we liberal as we profess to be? I represent those people, in this country, who do feel like the new disenfranchised, because they have a belief in God. People accuse me of taking Ireland backwards. Pseudo-liberals are taking Ireland back to the Penal Days when people were afraid to lift their heads and declare their faith in God. Well, I m not afraid to lift my head. But so many other people are. That s why I believe we are in a post-liberal age where what was perceived as a stranglehold-of-the-right has been replaced by a stranglehold-of-the-left. And that is what I felt was happening when I was interviewed by Vincent Browne.
So are you saying that those who fear you want to haul Ireland back to the past are suffering from irrational fear?
Yes. As I have said before, Ireland doesn t need to go back to anything. It needs to move forward, in a more stable sense.
And that sense of security, as far as you are concerned, is rooted in retaining a religious faith?
Yes. But it s not fair for people to label me as a radical, right-wing fundamentalist, as has too often been the case during this election. I believe it is possible to go forward, with progress, with change, but not discard the need for moral values and a Christian ethic in this country.
Which, fundamentally, links you to Mary McAleese. But when you see her being described as the thinking voter s Dana does that suggest to you that anyone who votes for you must be non-thinking, i.e. brainless?
Yes. And this is part of the same way of getting across this woman is stupid and anyone who shares her beliefs are stupid. But if I m so stupid why didn t the so-called intellectual heavyweights of this country, both political and legal, do what I did? As in, for the first time, open up the political process and show the people that they could have their constitutional right to choose the President of Ireland from a candidate chosen by people such as councillors rather than by political party dictats? In the Constitutional Review, they have been discussing opening this process. It needed to be challenged. So if I m so stupid to have done that, then let s have more stupidity.
Have you detected a similar reaction to Mary McAleese s Christian base?
The first question Vincent Browne asked was Why should anyone vote for you, as opposed to Mary McAleese? And I said, Why? Because we re both Northern? and he said (adopts hysterical tone of voice) No, because you have the same values. That just made me think Hold on here. We re all Catholics going to this post. But I have never gone forward as a one-issue candidate. And what you describe as my Christian base certainly isn t the one issue I am interested in. Though I do seem to be the one who is put under attack most often because of my beliefs, certainly more so than Mary McAleese.
Has any of the criticism really hurt?
One comment, maybe in The Sunday Business Post, made me feel that someone had literally punched me right here (curls fist into lower stomach area). That editorial said don t underestimate the enemy and I was described as the enemy . That was like someone punched me and I couldn t breathe.
Do you ever get depressed during the campaign?
Before I came over, I definitely had moments of feeling inadequate. I mean, I ve never been in politics and wouldn t want to be in politics because I could never adhere to a party whip. I d have to say what I thought. Even if it kills me. But I was wondering Will I let down those I m hoping to speak for? Let s face it, because of my career, I left school at A levels and I knew I d come up against intellectual snobbery. I wasn t afraid for me, just afraid for those people who want me to speak for them. But if you believe that people are being denied a voice you have to stand for that, even if you stand on your own. And that s why I am alone. I didn t want and I wouldn t accept any support, financial, or organisationally, from any organisation.
So where do you get the funding? From the outset you said your family was funding the campaign. My estimate is that, in the lead up to getting the nomination, you spent about #10,000-#15,000. But Fianna Fail are said to be putting #300,000 behind Mary McAleese. So how do you make #15,000 reach even half that figure?
We ve just opened a bank account, though I don t know what s in it. And we are investigating the idea of my accepting donations from America. I can t fund raise there, unlike the major parties. But if we have to borrow it, we ll borrow it. We may not be able to do posters, but I ll go as far as I can go. Yet I did not take this nomination to represent any organisation or group and I will not accept funding from organisations that see me in that sense. I will not and I cannot be bought.
You have already revealed that the first person who called you, suggesting you go forward for the Presidency was Gerry O Mahony, representing a Christian Alliance Organisation and that you rejected the notion because I basically didn t want to know these people. Even so, in the last issue of Hot Press, he spoke on your behalf and said he believes that the election of Mary Robinson was when the sluice gates opened for this Godless liberal agenda. Do you want to distance yourself from that?
First of all I d like to comment on that article. You yourself did what Hot Press described as The Presidential Interview with Mary McAleese and I believe it was deliberately belittling of me, to precede it in the magazine with an article about me, which contained not one quote from me. I would question why that was done and, to tell you the truth, if this interview for Hot Press hadn t been with you, I would have told them to stuff their magazine. As for those comments, all I can say is that Mr. O Mahony has no part in my campaign. I have to respect his right to his own feelings and beliefs but he has no permission to speak for me. And I am surprised that he was interviewed on my behalf. As far as Mary Robinson s presidency is concerned, I will leave it to history to judge her. I m not here to judge anyone else. Nor am I defining myself by what I am against. I m defining myself by what I m for. What am I for? Well, I ve read another article that described me as a dangerous light on the modernisation and secularisation of Ireland. If the aim is to modernise and secularise Ireland, let s establish first of all that those two concepts are not joined at the hip. No one objects to the modernisation of Ireland but it doesn t follow that this also means secularisation of the country.
If there is another referendum on abortion and the people vote yes would you sign those papers into legislation or refer it to the Supreme Court?
As President, all you could do is check the constitutionality of the Bill. And the chairman of MRBI, which is a reputable polling company, said the wording was so confusing that it reflected badly on the politicians. Why did they give a confused wording to the people? Because they didn t want to hear the people. Let s give the people the referendum a majority are still asking for. Now, assuming that it is a clear, fair, referendum, in that case I would honour the people s choice. But as President, the only power I would have in this situation would be to check the constitutionality of the Bill. I can t go in there with my own policies and an agenda and decide to open past referenda. Or impose my will on the people of Ireland. But then, nor can the Government, which is what it has been doing.
It is claimed you are calling for another referendum. Are you?
No. All I said was that the government would want to respond to the fact that between 60%-70% of the people have been asking for a referendum to clarify the confused wording of the last referendum.
So do you want another referendum on abortion?
The people should be heard because it says in the constitution that the last voice should be the voice of the people.
But what about Rosemary Scallon s voice? When I first interviewed you two years ago, you could have categorically stated that you would like another referendum. Are you afraid to say that now?
I do feel there should be another referendum but it s not solely me saying that for myself. I am saying it because I want to know why a government that claims to be open and pluralistic is not responding to the peoples wishes in this respect. And I would really ask the National Union of Journalists to look again at the question of freedom of the Press. Freedom of the Press means freedom for the journalist but I ve asked people how often they read articles on the devastating effects abortion has on women and they said they haven t seen many. If you really want freedom of choice you must present to the public both sides of the equation. I don t believe that both sides were presented, equally, in the media at the time of the last abortion referendum. Presenting only one side is purely propaganda.
What the Irish people voted for in the last abortion referendum was access to information, which you once described as only a step down the road to provide abortion. Do you still see it that way?
Absolutely. But it s not for me to judge what people want.
But you would side with people who don t want that information made available in Ireland?
I m absolutely pro-life.
After reading that interview you did in Hot Press two years ago in which you spoke of doctors keeping babies alive so they can cut through the skulls in order to take cells from their brains and doctors drowning babies before they breathe so that there can be no prosecution one response was that you were simply using the scare tactics characteristic of pro-life groups.
I never tell anything other than what I believe or know to be the truth. I do not lie, even if that may mean losing my life.
So is this the kind of scenario you fear would unfold in an Ireland where abortion is freely available?
Absolutely. Why wouldn t it? But I don t want to go over all this again with you. I will just repeat my core position on abortion. I believe that abortion kills the child, wounds the mother and can kill the soul of a nation. That s the bottom line on this subject, as far as I m concerned. And if I am hoping and praying for killing in the North to end, is it not hypocrisy not to be abhorred at the idea of the introduction of deliberate killing in the South?
What was your response to Mary Banotti s implied suggestion that the next President of Ireland shouldn t come from the North?
When I won Eurovison for Ireland, it was a time of pride, joy, unity and celebration for us all. Nobody ever called me the northerner.
Nevertheless, it has been suggested that there is a Northern factor working against yourself and Mary McAleese, maybe even an inherent prejudice down here in the south that people haven t properly identified. Have you noticed any of that?
I have. But you have to acknowledge that that feeling is there. If someone has that prejudice you can t say you have no right to that feeling because it probably is rooted in a fear that, through me, something will spill over the border, into the south. But at this time, when everything is on the table, literally, in the discussions in the North, it is time to re-examine why we feel that way. And I would ask anyone who has that reaction to look into their own hearts and ask themselves why that is.
Mary Holland suggested that unionists are not particularly impressed by Mary McAleese running for President. Have you had any feedback along these lines in relation to yourself?
Never. In fact, this week, the Young Unionists, I think, made a statement of support at my going forward. I have never had any problem with unionists because they know I respect their right to their feelings, even though they may not be what I like.
What do you mean by that?
The intolerance and bigotry I encountered growing up. But the way I was taught to deal with that was to respect the fact that they have a right to those feelings, as long as they don t try and impose them on me. We have to respect the differences.
Yes, but you once told me you were a member of the Young Nationalist Organisation and almost knew by heart Bernadette Devlin s maiden speech in the House of Commons. If all this is hauled back up, couldn t unionists begin to fear that you may be a closet nationalist, secretly striving for a United Ireland.
As the President of this island, that is not in my jurisdiction.
On a symbolic level it is. So would you want to be seen as striving for a united Ireland?
The unity I would look for is a unity of heart, a nation joined under one God.
A Catholic God?
No. The Ulster Protestant people themselves are a nation under God. And when you bring up my being in the Young Nationalist Organisation, that was simply because my best friend s father was Eddie McAteer, so, at that age, I wasn t really into why I was doing it, I was there because she was my best friend. But I don t think it is right to bring this issue into this because we are not looking at a north-south Presidential role here.
It became an issue when the President of Ireland shook the hand of Gerry Adams.
I understand that and all I can say to this is that my roots are in the North.
But part of those roots, as you said in your biography, is the memory of sitting by your window watching riots in the Bogside. All that must have left at least an emotional scar.
Yes, but I felt that my involvement in the entertainment world has kept me one step removed from the politics of the situation, though, of course, emotionally, the events obviously left a scar. Particularly, as in later, with Damien, my husband, who is a hotelier and who had seven IRA bombings on his premises and endless worries about incendiaries, bomb scares and all that. So I was always aware of the effect of this on a personal, everyday level. Both from looking out my window at the lines of rioters on the streets, knowing people who were shot on Bloody Sunday and, later, standing down the road waiting for the bomb to go off in the hotel, or waiting for Damien to go down the corridors with the bomb squads looking for those bombs. That registered on me, very deeply. So, yes, like most people in the North, I have been emotionally pummelled through the last 25 years.
Around 1969, you must have known people who became active in the IRA?
Everybody became politicised at that stage, in different ways. As I said, I did almost know by heart Bernadette Devlin s speech, which was one of the most amazingly articulate speeches I ve ever heard. But, at the time, we weren t as aware of the Catholic people s problems with the Protestant community in the broadest sense. I was very much a working class Catholic, whereas it was more middle class Catholics that felt the full effects of bigotry. We were at a social level where everybody both Catholics and Protestants were suffering. But I ve always been non-violent so I could never have gotten involved in the actual violence itself, as in the IRA. That s what I mean when I say I cross the divide. And down through the years, I have been involved with Co-Operation North and the Nothern Ireland Youth Club Association, which are all dedicated to bringing people together, from both sides of the divide. That, basically, is where I stand on this issue, so I wouldn t say that unionists have any need to be scared of my having some secret agenda, politically.
As you say, your husband s hotel was often bombed by the IRA. As President, could you now reach out and shake the hand of Gerry Adams?
As an individual, he has a dignity, I respect him. So I would have no problem doing that. And if I was Mary Robinson, I probably would have done the same thing.
Damien did end up drinking too heavily as a result of all those bomb attacks, didn t he?
Not just as a result of the bombings. Don t forget that from the late 60s until the time we married in 78 there really were endless incendiaries because the IRA regarded all hotels as legitimate targets. So he was under incredible pressure and did, yes, start to drink too heavily.
Did you?
No. My grandfather was an alcoholic and my mother had a particular fear of it happening to any of us. Though when I got into music, I did realise that you could be drinking from morning to night. That s the nature of the music business. And most of my musical directors were either recovering alcoholics or active alcoholics. But I ll always remember once when I got double-booked with a lovely woman singer who had a problem with alcohol and she said Don t ever let this happen to you. And I didn t. I never even took a drink.
Any experience of drugs, prescribed or otherwise?
No.
And as a mother, how would you respond if you found your daughter was using Ecstasy?
I know people I love very much who have struggled against not just alcohol abuse but also drug abuse and I have explained to my children that it actually is a downward spiral. So they understand the dangers. And those dangers apply, as far as I am concerned, to ecstasy, because it is part of a drug culture which can lead you onto other drugs.
So if the people of Ireland voted for the legalisation of cannabis, as President, would you have a problem with that?
I would hope that wouldn t happen. And before people make that decision I would hope, again, that they have true freedom of the Press where both sides of the drugs argument are presented to them in equal measure. But then, when Damien went through his course in drug and alcohol abuse I went through it with him because we were going to be married so I am very aware of all the problems in this area. And I believe it is even more difficult to get off drugs than it is to get off alcohol so before people vote on this, as with all other issues, they must be fully informed.
You said, in The Irish Times, that you have no problem extending the concept of the family to include single-mothers and even argued that the constitutional rights for the single mother should be expanded. Nevertheless you drew the line at gays, claiming that the family is defined, in this country and universally, as involving children, which, to me, is not really a factor in relation to gays.
The universally accepted image of the family is the husband, wife and children but I would still deeply respect the rights of gay Irish people, who should be shown the same respect as any other Irish citizen under the Constitution.
Would you respect the right of gay men to marry and adopt children? Likewise, in relation to lesbians who might chose to marry and raise children?
We head for the ideal, which is mother, father, children, though we can t always reach that ideal, as in the case of the single parent. I don t mean to be judgmental but, looking at it from the point of view of what I believe is best for the child, I would be inclined to believe that model of perfection is the mother, father, children scenario.
What will be your response if gays come back at you and say we have another ideal ?
I would have to understand that.
So they need not fear that they would be excluded from an Ireland over which Dana is President.
The President can neither include or exclude.
That s not necessarily true. Mary Robinson made a point of having many an open day at Aras An Uachtaramn where minority groups were welcome. So if President Dana had a family day would our hypothetical two men and their baby be welcomed by you?
If that s how the people choose to redefine the family after a referendum.
As a woman, did you have any sympathy at all with Siniad O Connor when she originally tore up that picture of the Pope claiming, among other things, that he was the quintessential symbol of patriarchy in the Catholic Church? Many saw that single gesture as representing a wider rejection of Catholicism among young people.
Perhaps initial rejection is needed as part of an overall re-examination of the Church. From within and without. Tearing up that picture of the Pope was Siniad s personal expression of that form of rejection, though she recently admitted that she now sees this as an immature reaction. And she has recently apologised, which shows growth on her behalf. But look at it this way: because I may feel that you are dealing with me unjustly, does that give me the right to destroy you? No. It gives me the right to challenge you. Yet what I see happening in this country at the moment, is overkill, in terms of the attempt to destroy. As in what Vincent Browne himself described as the need for me to be annihilated . There is a culture of annihilation currently sweeping through Ireland, whether that relates to Siniad tearing up the picture of the Pope or Vincent Browne trying to destroy me on the radio. Not that I m comparing myself to the Pope! But although there were wrong-doings in the Church that needed to be rectified, that doesn t mean that everything about the Church, or the Pope, needs to be destroyed.
But there are those, even Christians, who believe that the Catholic Church has been systematically sexist in the way that it excludes, for example, women priests and, by extension, the concept of a woman Pope.
If the Pope, tomorrow, said there could be women priests, fine.
So is the Pope still the supreme voice of authority as far as you are concerned?
He s the head of the Church, yes. But then I, as a woman, don t feel I have to take on what some may see as male dominated organisations, in order to feel empowered. I am a part of the Church but I can decide not to be a part of that Church. There s no invisible bars keeping me in. But because I don t agree with certain things about the Church does that mean I m to dismantle and destroy it? No. I believe in womens rights. I call myself a true feminist because I believe in equality for women.
If you lose the election, and commentators say that s another nail in the coffin of Catholic Ireland will that be true?
That will show their immaturity and says more about them than me.
Okay, then, alternatively, if you win and it is described as a victory for Catholic Ireland, would you reject that analysis?
I would reject that, yes. Because I recognise the Moslem right to believe in God, the Protestant right to believe in God, I believe in a multi-denominational reading of religion. I m a believer. I believe in God but it doesn t mean I look down on an Atheist because he doesn t.
You have also been accused of being out-of-touch with contemporary Ireland because you ve lived out of the country for so long.
My husband was offered a job abroad and I went with him. I am representative of one hundred million Irish million Irish emigrants. I m one of the ones that the light was put in the window of Aras an Uachtarain to welcome me home, okay?
Yes, but when Mary Robinson put that light in her window that didn t necessarily mean you should come back and claim the home itself!
Well, that s what I m doing! So what are the people of Ireland going to do? Kick me in the teeth? And some people have said How dare she? Who does she think she is? She s not even living in the country. As I say there is a hundred million Irish people not living in this country. Buy I have had no crisis of identity. I ve not changed my passport. It s not a piece of paper that makes me Irish. I ve not lost my loyalties. And to say, I m out-of-touch, well, is Tony O Reilly, who controls a vast amount of newspapers in this country, out-of-touch , because he lives in Pittsburgh? Should he be removed as the controller of those papers that are feeding information to the Irish people? It s all a bit ridiculous, really.
Dana, can you accept that you haven t a hope in hell of winning this election?
I was bottom of the polls going into Eurovision! My father won a bet of 30 to 1, the biggest bet he ever won! But, at the end of the day, it isn t whether you win, it s whether you try. And what I am trying to do, essentially, is say that it is the constitutional right of the people of this country to be the last voice in relation to matters pertaining to the Constitution. This country belongs to the people, not to the politicians, and that is what I think the people will be voting for if they vote for me in this election.
Mary McAleese is the current front-runner. If she wins will you sing for her in Aras An Uachtarain?
I don t know if I will sing for her! (Laughs) If she wins, it will be because the people feel she shares their vision of the future. n