I m flabbergasted with the idea that anyone pays much attention to my career, says Fine Gael wunderkind TD, 28-year old Brian Hayes. You re looking at the luckiest politician in the country in terms of how the deck of cards unfolded.
Beneath the aw-shucks demeanour, Hayes is a politician with a sense of ambition, determination and self-discipline that belies his youthful appearance. Born in August 1969, he grew up in Clontarf. After Belgrove primary school, he became a boarder, by choice, at St. Joseph s College, Garbally, in Ballinasloe, Co. Galway. I spent six years there and they were the making of me, he recalls. Ballinasloe took a few of the urban chips off my shoulder. If you re from Dublin, you feel as if you re the bee s knees and it s good to mix with people from the country who don t share that perspective.
Hayes joined Fine Gael when he was 16. A fervent anti-Republican, he had been involved in groups such as New Consensus and the Peace Train organisation and saw membership of Fine Gael as the next logical step. While studying for his BA and HDip, first at Maynooth and later at Trinity College, Dublin, Hayes was extremely active within the party, eventually becoming its National Youth and Education Officer.
The vertiginous rise of Brian Hayes in national politics began when he zealously sided with John Bruton during the heaves and rumoured heaves of the early 1990s. Ingeniously, Hayes offered himself as a sacrificial lamb to contest the unwinnable Dublin South Central by-election in 1994. In return for this selfless act of devotion, he was co-opted onto South Dublin County Council and was later appointed by Bruton (who was now Taoiseach) to the Senate, to fill the vacancy created by the death of Gordon Wilson.
A seat in the Dail, however, was Hayes ultimate goal, and he wasn t about to stand in line waiting for a nomination. He bought a house in Tallaght and began to mobilise support in Dublin South West where the Fine Gael organisation wasn t so much on the floor as in the cellar. The party hadn t won a seat there in a decade.
It s probably the youngest constituency in the country, says Hayes. Tallaght alone is Ireland s third largest conurbation. It needed someone with youth and energy.
Through unstinting hard work, Hayes rebuilt the party in Dublin South West and was rewarded by topping the poll in the 1997 general election, raising the party vote from 6% to nearly 16%. Since becoming a TD, he has carved out a high media profile and attracted much attention earlier this year by calling for the setting up of a Commission For The Status Of Men.
Brian Hayes is getting married on August 29th next, to Genevieve, his girlfriend of five years. The grand-daughter of a Fine Gael TD, Genevieve has her own political ambitions and her sights are firmly set on a seat in Leinster House. Genevieve and Brian met while she was Chairperson of Fine Gael in UCD.
Liam Fay: You have the look of a school prefect. Were you?
Brian Hayes: All that kinda stuff, yeah. I was elected onto the student council every year. I was involved in debating, and all that stuff. I suppose I was a pillar of society.
Is that a role you aspired to from an early age?
It s just something that s in you. I m innately that way. Some people aren t. I am.
What about youth being a time for a little recklessness, for sex, drugs and rock n roll?
Yeah, grand, but my generation isn t really like that. There s an innate conservatism about our generation which has its own problems. But I think our generation are just a wee bit peeved off about people from the 1960s telling us how we should act. We act how we want to act. That s filtering through student union politics which I was part of as well. There is a definite common-sense, conservative streak there at the moment. It s cyclical. We re now in a much calmer cycle. I have no doubt that, in ten years time, the thing will turn on its head, and students and young people will be demanding all the things that my generation didn t demand.
And you re happy to submit to those cycles? You ve never felt like bucking the trend?
Politics is very much a process where, sometimes, you ve got to play the long game, the endgame. What is important is what you want to achieve. I know what I want to achieve for society and I ll use the political vehicle to achieve that.
What are the top items on your agenda?
First and foremost, I represent a constituency which isn t getting its fair share of the national cake. I know all politicians say that, but I m in favour of re-distribution in an exacting way which will ensure that everybody gets a fair share of the national cake. I came into politics because of Northern Ireland. I m very anti-Provo, always have been, and Fine Gael was the natural vehicle of anti-Provoism. Because of that, an ambition that all politicians should have now would be the final successful outcome of the Northern talks. I would also like to see people in the Republic start thinking through exactly what they want to achieve in a new Ireland and how that s going to play with the Unionist community in particular. So, my second ambition would be to see this question resolved once and for all, not just in terms of politics but in terms of hearts and minds.
Was it not a wrench moving from salubrious Clontarf with all its nice shops, amenities and so on to Tallaght?
I live in salubrious Tallaght, I ll have you know. People who talk about Tallaght haven t a notion of it.
Community groups in Tallaght are constantly complaining about their lack of amenities.
Parts of it. But the vast majority of people in Tallaght are doing very well, thank you very much. They ve decided years ago that they don t want to move anywhere else because they love their community. They re on their third family holiday a year and all the rest of it. To answer your original question, I missed my family. I moved to Tallaght purely with the objective of winning a seat. That wrenches you out of your community but Dublin is a small city. The M50 means it s only 20 minutes over to Clontarf if I want to go see my family or my friends.
Do you resent the Boy Wonder tag?
I suppose it s a bit flattering.
Boy Wonders don t have a great record in Fine Gael. For instance, who remembers Chris O Malley MEP?
Ah yes, Chris. If people want to make those comments, let them make those comments. I m aware that if certain elements of the media build you up, it could easily go the opposite direction very quickly. Criticism is something I ve grown into. I found it very difficult to take criticism for a year or so. I don t find it difficult at all now. It s just part of the process.
Are you familiar with the work of Macaulay Culkin?
No.
The star of Home Alone?
Oh yes.
He was a big star when he was a kid but became unemployable once he hit 16. Do you think his career holds any lessons for yourself?
I don t think you can compare actors to politicians. Most people have never heard of Brian Hayes. I hope they ve heard of him out in Tallaght. Politicians in Ireland shouldn t treat themselves that seriously. Ireland is a small society, a small culture. This kind of celebrity status attached to politicians is just rubbish. Most people can ring me any night of the week and get a reply from me about a problem. That doesn t happen in most other societies. We are neither cult figures nor celebrity figures.
You were one of the young politicians who appeared on that notorious Late Late Show a few years ago. You didn t look like a group of young people; you were just slightly less wrinkled versions of older politicians. Do you realise how depressing that programme was?
Yes. Because all the parties have been in government of late, they all know what it s like. The level of difference between all the parties isn t huge. I fully accept that. A lot of the big issues have already been resolved. As a new political class, we young politicians have to find new issues. It s time for parties to re-define themselves. There are too many parties for the number of people in the country, anyway.
Which parties can we do without?
Oh, the PDs. Time is about to deal them an irrevocable blow.
The panel on that Late Late didn t look like any group of young people I ve ever seen. There were no earrings, no long hair, no . . .
None of my friends have earrings or long hair.
Exactly!
Look, in public life, you perform a role. When you become a politician, you realise that you have to wear a tie, you have to have a suit.
But do you?
You do. There are actually rules in the Dail about wearing a tie. And there is such a thing as decorum. It s a serious job we do. It s not a bellyful of laughs. But, yeah, we young politicians do probably take ourselves too seriously and our outward appearance expresses that.
Are you appalled by the vogue among young people for genital piercing?
I have no experience of it. No strong views. More luck to them, once they don t look for a tax break for doing it.
What do you think of Bertie Ahern spending #135 a week on beauty treatment?
It hasn t done him much good (laughs). Actually, he is looking very well at the moment. He has that Teflon look about him. I think Bertie s problem is that he tries to please too many people. It s very important, sometimes, to say no to people and to tell them why you believe they re wrong. Those features have not come through in Bertie Ahern yet. He wants to be loved.
Is power an aphrodisiac?
I think politicians who say they are unaware of their power, and that they re just doing a job, are spoofing. The Dail itself is a bit of a theatre. The trappings of the Houses of the Oireachtas, and your position as a member of the Oireachtas, makes you aware that you are a privileged person. You re one of only 166 people in the country who ve been elected to legislate. I enjoy the Dail, I enjoy the privilege of the place and the opportunity it affords in terms of getting my ideas across. But I don t find it an aphrodisiac, no.
Have you had a chance to test your pulling power in a nightclub since you became a TD?
No. I haven t been in a nightclub in about two years. When you get to 25, 26, you start getting tired at 12 or 1am. Myself and the friends with whom I used to go out pinting all the time now go out to have dinner. It s very civilised. I used to be a regular nightclubber but I find you get very boring as you get older.
Which was your favourite nightclub?
I used to go to Tamangos quite a bit, when I was playing hard on the Northside. Howl At The Moon is another one in town I liked.
Have you ever been howling at the moon yourself?
Oh, I suppose I was, but I wouldn t like to remember it.
Are you one of these people who meticulously plan out their lives? Marriage at 28, children at 30, etc?
I m big into routine alright. In politics, you can t plan too far ahead because it s such an unpredictable business. But, yeah, I like to have order. I m up very early in the morning. I m up at 7.30 every morning and in my Dail office for about 8.15am. I work best in the morning. I find myself slowing up by about 6 or so. I don t believe I should be in politics all my life. I d love to spend about ten years in politics, make a contribution, get out and do something else. I think people should move in and out of politics as quickly as they possibly can.
Do you want to become Taoiseach?
Yes.
Will you achieve that within ten years?
No, absolutely not. On a list of 100, becoming Taoiseach is probably my 100th ambition. It s something that s in the gift of others.
You ve been a politician all your adult life. What would you do if you lost your seat?
I m a qualified teacher though I ve never actually taught. I finished the H.Dip and went straight into Fine Gael. I d maybe try and do something like your job. I enjoy analysing and commenting on things so I might go into journalism.
TDs are constantly banging on about how busy they are. But so much of what they call their workload is pointless and self-inflicted. This tradition of going to funerals, for instance.
I don t go to funerals. Unless I know the person. Dublin politicians don t do that anymore. I don t think they do, anyway.
There s something incredibly cynical about that tradition, isn t there?
That s my view, yeah. The idea that I would invade people s private space at a funeral is something I find particularly weird. But I understand that there are a lot of people, particularly in the country, who enjoy having politicians at the funeral, who want politicians at the funeral, who boast about the fact that three of the four TDs from the constituency, or a Minister, may have been there.
It s a pretty sad consideration at a time of what is supposed to be grief.
Yeah, but these are pretty sad people.
Do you resent always having to be available to your constituents, day and night?
It s part of the job spec. You know that you work on Saturdays. If you re lucky, you have Sundays off. It s part of the downside of the job and the only way we re going to change that is to change the system drastically but there s no political or public appetite to do that. The public are actually more demanding of your time now in 1998 than they were five years ago. Local issues dominate more today than at any stage in the past.
Do you believe that the constituent is always right?
No, they re not always right. Take an example: the Eastern Health Board have a plan to put a drugs centre in the middle of Tallaght. We need a drugs centre in the middle of Tallaght. But there s local opposition to it. I put forward the argument that says we need this centre for the common good, but I ll be pilloried all over central Tallaght for doing that. It s a case of Not In My Back Yard.
This is the most difficult issue that politics faces at the moment. This fundamental selfishness which is at the heart of many of our communities. People will say, Yes, we want a facility here, we want an amenity here in the general area but we don t want it beside us. Frequently, the local politician is found in the firing line. I m really frustrated by the NIMBY factor that exists in our society at the moment.
Most thinking politicians must know that, internationally, the so-called War on Drugs is over and lost. Yet most of you are afraid to even discuss the subject of legalisation.
I m not afraid to discuss anything, but I don t support legalisation or decriminalisation.
Not even of cannabis?
No.
Even though there are senior international police figures who say that legalisation of cannabis is inevitable within 20 years?
You re not interviewing them, you re interviewing me. I don t think there s any gain to be got from legalising something that we know to be harmful, even though it may not be as harmful as other drugs. There s a real Dublin 4 attitude around this, a real smartarse UCD attitude. The truth is that the legalisation of cannabis will inflict further suffering on people like the people I represent. I will take the people who are pushing this argument by the hand and bring you out to public meetings in my constituency, and you can meet the parents of kids who ve been affected by the drugs scene. The overwhelming view of that group of people, who ve been affected more than any other group in this city, would be to oppose any form of legalisation.
You use the word suffering . What is the suffering you associate with cannabis use?
The THD component has a detrimental effect. If we knew the harmful effect of cigarettes that we know today, we wouldn t legalise them. There s no completely conclusive medical view that cannabis is completely harmless. So why legalise it when the jury s still out on the issue? If the state was to legalise cannabis, it could leave itself open to all kinds of litigation from people for all sorts of reasons.
Governments happily rake in taxes from people who drink themselves into ill health, don t they?
But, you see, we re not going to ban drink or cigarettes. We just can t. It s too socially acceptable. Cannabis is not socially acceptable at the moment and that s the political reality. Another issue, and I ve spoken to many senior police people about this, is that the level of contamination in cannabis is actually increasing in Dublin all the time. The mixture of the components in the Dublin market is having a very harmful effect on people.
Contamination is a direct consequence of cannabis being illegal.
Who de we legalise it for? People under 18? People over 18?
There are laws about who can and cannot be served alcohol.
I ve just made the point that you cannot criminalise something which is socially acceptable. You can try to have an education campaign around it. But you will not, in this society, criminalise the taking of alcohol. You re not telling me that the legalisation of cannabis is an acceptable view in Irish society?
In some areas, yes, it is.
It s acceptable among the chattering classes.
There are thousands of working-class people, many in your own constituency, who regard cannabis as perfectly acceptable.
There are, but I think this is largely a very middle-class thing. I have no tolerance for this argument at all.
So you re happy to continue the hypocrisy to have cops with stinking hangovers arresting people for having a joint in their possession?
Well, sure, life s full of hypocrisies, isn t it? What did Churchill say? There are 100,000 contradictions in a good man s life what about a bad man? That s life.
What s your attitude to pornography?
There s a huge issue around the effect it has on women. The proliferation of pornography has helped the male view of women as objects. We have a censor s board. Playboy gets through. Others don t get through. But, in an international market and a fluid society, it s very hard to know how you can stop these things coming into the country. Ultimately, it s about educating people about respect for sexuality at the earliest possible age and getting away from these taboos and inhibitions that people have.
There are a huge number of men for whom pornography might be their only sexual outlet. Are they entitled to that?
They are entitled to it, once it hasn t a negative consequence on other people. It s a very difficult issue for policy-makers to sort out.
Isn t there a double standard, here, though? Erotica for women is always deemed good and healthy but erotica for men is automatically sinister and wicked isn t that a rather two-faced attitude?
Yeah, I do think there is a doublethink around that issue. We have to start assessing the new position that men find themselves in. For example, when I raised the question of the Commission For The Status Of Men, I said that there are issues of female violence against men which are laughed at. People just don t want to face up to it. It s not part of the male culture to face up to it because they ll be ridiculed. I am aware of a hotline for men who are the victims of female violence and the calls have mushroomed in recent times.
In fairness to all aspects of gender politics, we must face all parts of the equation. And men s issues have not been taken seriously by politicians of all parties. We need to address that, not in any harmful way to women and the women s movement, but in terms of how men perceive themselves and how women perceive them in the 1990s.
Is it not one of men s better qualities that we don t bleat on endlessly about our feelings?
Well, I think we really ought to start bleating on, pretty rapid. Because if the figures continue to spiral, in relation to male suicide, the whole problem of crime and men, violence and men, we may not have a species within a certain period of time.
So society now discriminates against men?
Just take the issue of health. There s a Female Health Department in the Department of Health. There s no Men s Health Department. If you go into a GP s practice, you ll see posters and magazines advocating good health options for women. You don t see anything like the same publicity campaign around men s health issues. We re only beginning to address the screening of breast cancer, but testicular cancer and prostrate cancer haven t been addressed in any serious way. Men are actually living shorter lives than women. It s not discrimination, it s a complete lack of focus.
How big an issue is this in your constituency?
The biggest issue at the moment is guys on their own being unable to get accommodation. They re not going to get a local authority house because they re on their own. They re not getting an Eastern Health Board rent subsidy. One month, they re staying with their sister. The next month, they re on a friend s floor. How can that fella stay close to his child on the day or two days he has access? How can he bring a kid around to where he s staying, a place that s already overcrowded? A young father can t develop a relationship with a kid unless he has somewhere to bring the kid. So you re building up this amazing level of frustration in this young single father who wants to stay close to his kid but can t.
Do you think feminism has gone too far?
There needs to be a fundamental re-think. I meet a lot of women my own age who are part of the post-feminist era, who don t relate to a lot of the views, understandably aggressive, of the 1970s. That s not to say that there aren t still huge issues of equal pay and management structures that need to be addressed. But there are many post-feminist women who are beginning to realise that they live in a fair, gender-free society.
And do you believe the feminist establishment adopts an unnecessarily aggressive tone?
Some of them do, yeah. But there are also people like Maureen Gaffney who are very with-it.
What do you think of someone like Nell McCafferty?
Well, Nell s Nell. She s a good sport.
Do you think she s still banging a drum from another era?
She is, yeah. But she s from that era. And I m not. We ve another set of priorities, another attitude and people shouldn t be afraid of that. That s her generation and more luck to her but there are other women taking her place today.
Have you read Iron John?
Oh yeah, I ve read Iron John. It s really good, very good. I really enjoyed it. There s a lot to be learned from men getting together, outside of the pub I have to say, and talking about their problems.
Aren t young women today every bit as laddish as young men have ever been?
I don t think they re laddish. They re just expressing what they want to do, and have every right to do that. They have every right to go out and drink six pints a night and play hard. That s good for women. One of the problems is that we re all stereotyped into roles. Guys can t cry. Women are supposed to be in the home. All these notions from another generation.
Do you cry easily yourself?
I do, actually. I cry very easily.
What makes you cry?
Grief. I hate funerals and death. I m kinda preoccupied by death. One of the most emotional scenes I ve ever witnessed here was as a senator when the last Ceann Comhairle, Sean Treacy, left the Dail. It was amazing to be there that day. Every member of the House was there. He was doing his swansong and he stood up at the end and wished everybody the best of luck. There was a wonderful, massive standing ovation for him and he left the dais. That was a very emotional.
Did you shed a tear?
Em, yeah, well, I felt very emotional. I felt I was part of something bigger than myself.
Do movies make you cry?
Yeah. I wouldn t be moved by films like Michael Collins, or any of that epic stuff. Touts Les Matins Du Monde was very sad.
What do you mean when you say you re preoccupied with death?
I hated funerals from a young age. I hate seeing dead bodies. When I was 16, a friend of mine died at school and I was very struck by that, and it s lived with me since then. I just don t like the whole notion.
Would you like Chris De Burgh to sing at your funeral?
No thank you.
What sort of music do you like?
The Divine Comedy. They re my favourite.
What was the last album you bought?
A Short Album About Love. I also bought The Verve album. As you can imagine, I like that song The Drugs Don t Work .
What s your favourite TV show?
I don t see an awful lot of television. I love BBC 2 documentaries, especially about America. I m fascinated by American society. American society is very interesting to watch from the outside. Awful place to live in. I spent a few months there when I was a student.
Do you like Father Ted?
No, I don t. I never found it funny. I loved Scrap Saturday but I just don t think Father Ted is funny at all. I like The Simpsons but if you ve seen one episode you ve seen them all. Friends is quite good. It s synonymous with our generation, a large network of friends around you and all these singletons in the middle.
What five Irish sporting events do you believe are so precious to the nation that they should never be sold to satellite television?
I m not much into GAA at all really, but, in fairness to them, you d have to say the All-Irelands. Rugby internationals. Soccer internationals. And definitely the Murphy s Irish Open. That should be taken back off Sky! I m not much into racing so I don t mind what happens to that.
Do you play sports yourself?
I play golf. I was absolutely terrible at any team sports I ever put my hand to. I m not a very good sportsperson at all.
Masculinity, in Ireland, is almost always defined in sporting terms, in being tough and rough on the field. So did you fail that test?
Yes. I was never tough or rough on the field. I actually have a junior cup medal for rugby, with Garbally. It was for a rugby series and I was the only person who never actually played a moment throughout all six games. I was a sub, the substitute hooker. And, for one horrible moment in the final, the hooker went down and it looked as if he would have to be taken off. At that point, the crowd started shouting, Don t bring on Hayes! Don t bring on Hayes! So I was put back in the freezer. I was an appalling rugby player.
If you don t play team sports, how do you, eh, affirm your own masculinity?
I love going out with the lads. I enjoy a lads night out cause it s very funny. It s very funny to listen to the guys talk about themselves and you realise that they re really just gossiping and bitching the same way that a crowd of women would do.
The usual mode of conversation between men is slagging. Are you good at that?
Oh yes, slagging. I give as good as I get. I love going down the country and the craic down there. There are so many funny people in politics too. Some of them don t realise they re funny.
Who s the funniest person in the Dail?
It would have to be Louis Belton. He is just a very funny guy. He has a wonderful swagger.
Who is your closest friend in the Dail?
(Long pause) Someone that I confide in and look to is Liam Cosgrave. He was the chief whip when I came into the Senate and he was very good to me. He s just a natural gentleman.
Who s the most fanciable person in the Dail?
Without a shadow of a doubt, it has to be Louis Belton.
You ve been a stringent critic of Sinn Fiin and the IRA. How are your relations with Caoimhghmn O Caolain?
Good. I ve spoken to him regularly. We re on the same environmental committee and we share a lot of interests in environmental issues, local government issues. He s somebody I can do business with.
Do you trust Gerry Adams?
No, I don t trust Gerry Adams. I believed Sinn Fiin on the first ceasefire. I believed that it was over once and for all and that they were never again going to use violence, never again going to engage in dodgy practices. I remember where I was the night I heard about the Canary Wharf bombing. I was in Donegal at a conference. The first thing I said to myself was, They ve made liars of all of us. We said we believed them. And they weren t serious about their commitment to it. So I haven t trusted them since that day. They won t make a liar of me again. I trusted them once; I ll never trust them again.
What can they do to regain your trust?
They can cop themselves on and realise that a settlement, which is emerging, has to be multi-faceted. There has to be an Assembly in Northern Ireland. They have to accept that there can only be constitutional change in Northern Ireland where a majority of the people there wish it to occur. They have to accept that they cannot continue to treat Unionist people with this patronising view that they are Irish when Unionist people believe that they are British people living in Ireland. Sinn Fiin have got to face that, square on. They ve got to get away from this European-nationalist, Little Irelander notion. They have to understand that Irish nationality is not based solely on allegiance to a state. It s a much wider expression. The great achievement of our party has been to move the whole Northern Ireland debate on, thanks to Garret Fitzgerald and John Bruton. That has allowed Fianna Fail to get their minds around the new society that the Fine Gael party have built.
You say Fine Gael is the natural party of anti-Provoism , yet there are many who believe that it s only Fianna Fail who can sell a deal with the Unionists to the vast majority in the Republic. And that only Fianna Fail can swing a change to Articles 2 and 3.
Just listen to all the bellyaching that s been going on within Fianna Fail over the past two weeks. Wouldn t it be an extraordinary situation if the Fianna Fail Taoiseach of the day couldn t muster his troops behind him in order to deal with Articles 2 and 3? I think it s quite dangerous what s been said over the last few weeks by quite a number of Fianna Fail backbench TDs. They re actually putting extra pressure on the talks and giving an opportunity to the Unionists not to take this talks seriously. It might take Fine Gael s very precise position in terms of constitutional change to help the Taoiseach get over this particular problem.
Do you feel an affinity with the Unionists as a people?
Yes, I feel an affinity with Unionists and Nationalists. My father s Church of Ireland. My mother s a Roman Catholic. In our household, we learned respect for different traditions. I tried very hard when I was a student to build bridges and to get dialogue going between Unionists and Nationalists in the South. It s very easy to go North and agree with everything the SDLP or Sinn Fiin might say to you. The hard thing is to make common ground with the other tribe. The other tribe are essentially the British in Ireland, the Unionists.
But when you see Ken Maginnis throwing the tricolour into The Thames, don t you blush for Unionism?
Yeah, that was a stupid act.
They are prone to that kind of thing Trimble and Paisley dancing up the Garvaghy Road, for instance.
Yes, they are. They re prone to all that kind of auld tomfoolery. But we have to see beyond that stuff. They have to bang the old drum the odd time, grand, but there s a much bigger picture at stake here. And I passionately believe that Southern Irish politicians have to do more than just talk about good relations. They have to engage with Unionists. I m a great admirer of Eoghan Harris, and the courage he has in terms of trying to provoke Irish nationalism in the same sense that Tony Benn provokes British nationalism.
You always wanted to be a TD. Did that ever stop you doing anything? Would you have, say, refused to smoke a joint because you knew someone like me would come along when you were a TD and ask if you had ever smoked a joint?
It probably did, yeah. I was obviously in circles where that was going on but I just didn t do it.
For career reasons?
Well, I never smoked, anyway. I never inhaled anyway (laughs). But, yeah, of course you have to think about these things if you re involved in politics.
Do you have to be squeaky-clean?
I don t know if the public want their politicians squeaky-clean. The Irish aren t squeaky-clean about anything. Politicians are a simple reflection of the society. But I do accept your point. There is a certain conditioning that comes with this job and I was subject to that.
Do you ever feel you lost out because of that?
I do. I would ve loved to have had the courage to go to Australia for a year. But I often wonder if I used politics as an excuse for things I didn t do or wouldn t have had the courage to do. I don t think I would have had the courage to just head off for a year and not worry about how it would affect my position. I regret that.
Did your desire to keep a clean slate for your political career extend to remaining celibate?
Not really, no.
Is celibacy a desirable ideal among young single people?
Whatever they re into. It s proven a very difficult thing for the Church. They should relax that completely, if they re serious about getting new people into the priesthood.
What is the profanity you use most often?
I use Christ more than I should. Politics is very tension-laden sometimes and I have to watch my language.
Are any of The Ten Commandments still relevant today?
I think they re all relevant.
Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath day?
It s relevant for people who want to be part of the Church, part of the Christian tradition.
Are you religious?
I m not attending Mass regularly and I feel guilty about that. I set myself a new year s resolution that I would. I wanted to do that from a religious point of view but also from a tradition point of view. I feel a certain sense of tradition when I attend a Catholic church.
Why don t you go to Mass, then?
I m just too bloody lazy. But I am making a more conscious effort. I feel really good when I go. I know the tradition argument is not a good enough argument but I just feel that by going I m doing something that other generations did before me. I feel good about that. I feel I m part of a community when I do that. I m going to try to go to Mass at least one in four Sundays.
But if you can t even be bothered to go to Mass, can you really call yourself a Catholic?
I m very lapsed but I am a Catholic, even though my father is Church of Ireland. At a young age, I really resented the fact that my parents were treated in the way they were when they got married: married at 7am, being told that your kids had to be brought up Catholic. I very much resented the Catholic Church for that but I kinda grew out of that as I got older. The Ten Commandments are a good benchmark list for any type of humanitarian society that you want to produce.
But surely coveting our neighbours goods is what has helped produce the so-called Celtic Tiger?
Oh yeah, it s part of the trade-off.
So is that one commandment we can do without? Greed is good?
Greed isn t good but it works, in the short term. Unfortunately, I m not sure that when the final day of judgement comes it will gain us Paradise. n