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Referendum on EU fiscal compact
How are you voting?
-- hydra 
07/03/12 at 11:19 
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 From : gladys Posted : 21/05/12 at 13:05
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0516/break ing37.html
 From : evil_giraffe Posted : 21/05/12 at 14:09
But you want to stay in the Euro? Whilst not reducing the national debt or deficit? In fact you want to maintain or increase government spending? Whilst implementing a large public works programme?

Can I ask how?

It's probably fair to assume that you're against a property tax, yeah?

It's just like, I'm quite sure the above won't be possible whether we vote yes or no.

But I don't want to have to listen to people saying that it would have been possible if we'd only listened to them.

So I'm leaning towards a no.

(Also did you make up the €4 Billion a year cuts for 20 years yourself or can you send me a link to the person who did make it up? I want to send them an e-mail).
 From : evil_giraffe Posted : 21/05/12 at 14:36
I know my tone annoys you, but your invoking of children and the "most vulnerable", to attack those who are offering realistic proposals annoys me.

You say “Ireland has one of the highest level of debts in the EU and under this treaty it has to be reduced mind bogglingly quickly.”

If you’re talking about the annual deficit, this treaty doesn’t require that it be reduced, as we are “In a programme” (The agreement with the Troika) (This agreement requires that we reduce it....but that’s separate).

I won’t say that it is the purpose of this “Programme”, but one of the effects of the programme, is to extend the period of time over which the deficit would be reduced.

If the lender of last resort were not available, we would default and have to match our income to our expenditure over night.

There is a chance that we might “need” to enter a second programme next year, to again allow us continue spending more than we take in, i.e. running a deficit. This is the ESM. This is what the treaty is about. To gain access to this programme we need to commit not to run deficits whenever we leave “The programme”.

No one can force us to do anything once we’re spending less than we take in.

That isn’t the case at the moment. That’s why we have to do what we’re told.

Unless you want to leave the euro? (Which, as I’ve said, is an idea I could get behind)
 From : gladys Posted : 21/05/12 at 15:47
Evil, I wish we could do this face-to-face because there is no way I can get across in text all the stuff I'd like to say outside of the economics of all this.

"I know my tone annoys you, but your invoking of children and the "most vulnerable", to attack those who are offering realistic proposals annoys me." I invoke children because I AM a mother and I work on the ground (as a volunteer) with lone parents and families who are really suffering as a result of austerity. I also lost my job as a result of what's been happening and along with hundreds of thousands of others, am barely making ends meet. So I think I have every right to invoke children and the misery that's been caused as a result of crippling cutback to date - cutbacks that are only going to get worse if we vote 'yes'.

I will try to go through your points later when I've more time but I just wanted to point out the real human hardship and suffering behind the figures and market-speak. Suffering by people who did not share in the economic boom but who now share in shouldering the responsibility of paying back debts they did not accumulate.
 From : gladys Posted : 21/05/12 at 15:52
I also wanted to post this.

'ARTICLE 32
Legal status, privileges and immunities
3. The ESM, its property, funding and assets, wherever located and by whomsoever held, shall enjoy immunity from every form of judicial process except to the extent that the ESM expressly waives its immunity for the purpose of any proceedings or by the terms of any contract, including the documentation of the funding instruments.
4. The property..., funding and assets of the ESM shall, wherever located and by whomsoever held, be immune from search, requisition, confiscation, expropriation or any other form of seizure, taking or foreclosure by executive, judicial, administrative or legislative action.
5. The archives of the ESM and all documents belonging to the ESM or held by it, shall be inviolable.
6. The premises of the ESM shall be inviolable.
ARTICLE 34
Professional secrecy
The Members or former Members of the Board of Governors and of the Board of Directors and any other persons who work or have worked for or in connection with the ESM shall not disclose information that is subject to professional secrecy. They shall be required, even after their duties have ceased, not to disclose information of the kind covered by the obligation of professional secrecy.
ARTICLE 35
Immunities of persons
1. In the interest of the ESM, the Chairperson of the Board of Governors, Governors, alternate Governors, Directors, alternate Directors, as well as the Managing Director and other staff members shall be immune from legal proceedings with respect to acts performed by them in their official capacity and shall enjoy inviolability in respect of their official papers and documents.'
Pages 45-48. In black & white. From the European Council website. You can't say nobody told you.
 From : evil_giraffe Posted : 21/05/12 at 16:28
I've an exam tomorrow. I'll respond in the afternoon.
 From : ttemme Posted : 21/05/12 at 19:23
nuttin' like a good aul' argument. keep goin' you two.
 From : tricky Posted : 22/05/12 at 13:32
*first off this has been about half a day in my browser so forgive me if a) the discussion has moved way past it
b) some of the bits I say have already been talked about

The reality is we're faced with a situation where under Brian Lenihan's watch WE DID AGREE to this fucking bank rescue plan. The only option bar trying to walk away from that and having to balance our budget IMMEDIATELY (as in raise in taxes exactly what we're going to spend) and having the risk of a total banking collapse as well, is to keep the option of further funding from 'the troika' on the table.

I don't get how the people involved were bounced into taking on the senior bondholder burden, but they did so you're either about ripping up the contract and starting again (in which case we need to understand that all bets are off) or about trying to manage a process as best you can.

I don't underestimate the burden on people, I don't underestimate the hardship this is causing to people. However I don't necessarily see a better option, unless you can convince me that leaving the EURO is the right thing to do and that it won't cause our whole economy to implode.

I'm all for broadening the tax base, I'm also all for getting rid of things that are ludicrous (Children's Allowance for Couples with a certain threshold of income, College Fees being free to all, Free Medical Card to EVERY 70 year old and so on) rather then cutting supports to special needs classes (for example).

It's too easy right now for Sinn Féin to say "we'll still get money" we won't still get money, we'll get money with a lot of strings attached and those strings could be far worse than the 4 billion that has been suggested above.

If you're GENUINELY worried about the effect a rapid budget adjustment will have on the economy (and by the way, I am and it's shit) then voting No is totally illogical as it's FAR more likely that we'll have to have quicker drops in current budget deficit seeing as we'll either be forced to by the IMF or we won't be able to afford to borrow any.

By the way, I also have
a) No problem with a property tax, even though I own a house. I'll wait to see the implementation of is but fundamentally I think it's a relatively egalitarian basis for something
b) No problem with water charges
c) No problem with septic tank registtrations (people in Galway for example have for far too long had issues with groundwater and yet they aren't prepared to let anyone check that their sewage systems aren't the cause.
 From : number10 Posted : 22/05/12 at 18:48
I'd go with most or all of that, which is why I am leaning towards voting yes – the gut desire to tell everyone in politics to fuck off notwithstanding.
 From : Garymc Posted : 23/05/12 at 02:18
Ya know, I read here every day but very seldom post. I find theres a to less twolling opinion threads so i 've been following this one to see if I could be pushed either way and then I remembered my voting failsafe, witch is, "look at the sinners posters, then vote the opposite!
 From : ttemme Posted : 23/05/12 at 12:13
ah that's a bit h'rd on the s'inners. they're sometimes right.
 From : number10 Posted : 23/05/12 at 18:22
They are actually. But the instinct to vote the other way is a pretty reliable one all the same!
 From : tricky Posted : 25/05/12 at 10:50
bigtom = the most illuminating post on this so far ;)
 From : evil_giraffe Posted : 25/05/12 at 11:31
You should really leave a space between paragraphs though.
 From : bigtom Posted : 27/05/12 at 13:31
sorry folks, spilling again and interrupting what had been a good discussion. am cancelling "bigtom", i feel great for about 5 mins having ranted about something, then two days monumentally embarassed. the psychiatrist is getting well paid from your taxes, i'll save it for him.
found this interesting yesterday, a review of a book called "what makes countries rich or poor". there's more to the story, but it's important to keep the fundamentals in mind in times of uncertainty.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/ jun/07/what-makes-countries-rich-or-poor/
ciao
 From : number10 Posted : 29/05/12 at 12:27
Thought your contribution was more than worthwhile, Tom. Keep it up!
 From : ttemme Posted : 01/06/12 at 12:18
looks l'ke the yes side has it in the bag.
 From : number10 Posted : 01/06/12 at 16:49
I haven't seen any signs of people dancing in the streets.

Maybe they're keeping their euphoria for Forbidden Fruit...
 From : tornaxx Posted : 01/06/12 at 21:07
5 out of 43 constituencies said 'No' yet nobody I know in the non-internet world admitted to voting 'Yes'. What's the deal with that? I eventually voted 'No'.
 From : gladys Posted : 02/06/12 at 14:11
http://www.tni.org/article/debt-crisis-and-fiscal-treaty-ref erendum-ireland

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