JACKIE HAYDEN: Do you really believe that guitar bands are back?

TOM DUNNE: I don’t think they’ve ever gone away. It’s a cyclical thing, really. One time they're in, then other things take over for a while. And then they’re back. You can really see it at the moment. Last year, we had the scourge of the singer-songwriters. Damien Rice and people like him inspired a huge range of new people coming through. Even [they] got to the point of thinking, oh, no, not another bloody songwriter!
Did you feel that way too?
Not really, until a few great guitar bands started to come through and I thought, “Ah yes, now we’re talking. That’s more like it”. There’s nothing as exciting as a band if they get it right and everything’s working for them. A band in full song can devastate a room with the right songs, take a crowd and send them mad!
Who did you particularly like?
(emphatically) Republic of Loose. Their new single. There’s a rake of great new guitar bands we’ve been featuring in the “Rising” section of Pet Sounds, and a lot of them are getting signed.
Did the singer-songwriter thing take over because it fitted into our folk tradition?
I think it worked because it’s great for fans to see the guy who’s right there, who’s written the song and is good at playing it.
But have the economics a bearing on it too?
Absolutely. The guy can put his guitar into the boot of the car, drive to Kerry and do the gig. If there’s only a 100 people there he can make money on it. It’s different for a five-piece band who need sound and lighting. I remember Damien Rice and Lisa [Hannigan, Rice’s accompanist] came into the programme when we were recording in Sligo and he hadn’t even finished the album. They played ‘Cannonball’ and you could see that he felt that he could take this anywhere and do it.
And bands can’t do that quite so easily?
One thing I’ve learned over the years is that, if bands can take back some of it to themselves, cut out the record company and producers and everything, and just stand up and play a song and impress people, whether you’re busking or playing a small venue, you can have more control over your music and you’re in with a better chance.
If Something Happens were around now would it be easier or harder than it was back then?
I don’t really know. It wasn’t particularly difficult in our day. We had good venues to play, we got record company interest quite easily. Maybe the stigma of being dropped is not such a big deal now. Bands can record more cheaply now.
Do you feel it was a stigma, being dropped?
Oh God, yeah! Don’t mention the drop! It was like a death in the family.
Would Something Happens have played Live 8?
Yes, if we were asked.
What good comes out of a Live 8 event?
I honestly believe it gets people thinking about what’s going on in the world, and even if they only start asking questions they never asked before, that’s a good thing. Voter apathy is a huge problem, in nearly all western democracies. Whether you vote or not, somebody will make decisions as to how your money is spent and how your country is run. If you’ve no input then you can’t complain if you feel things aren’t run properly.
Aren’t people put off by the corruption of politicians everywhere?
Yeah, but the more you have people like Geldof saying it doesn’t have to be this way, the better, that you can embarrass them, and challenge them, and we should.
Do you see what Geldof and Bono do as a genuine commitment to those issues?
For them, absolutely. I believe they’re very sincere in their motives.
Is there no part of you that’s a little cynical and says it also sells lots of records and concert tickets?
No. Not at all. U2 for one aren't that worried about selling more records at this stage.
But other acts might be?
Yeah, I’m sure there are some bands who get involved with things like this who aren’t necessarily setting out to end world poverty but just feel it’s an amazing thing to be part of history. You could sense that from some of the younger bands like Keane backstage rubbing shoulders with Paul McCartney, Geldof and U2 and thinking, “Wow, everyone on the planet is looking at this show today and we’re on it! And it’s a good cause too!”
How do you feel about quotas for Irish music on radio?
There’s so much brilliant music being made by Irish bands to the point that on my show you don’t really have to think about quotas. On Pet Sounds some nights we play load of Irish music and some nights we don’t.
Is it different when you sit in for Ian Dempsey on the Breakfast Show?
Yes, the play-list is in front of you and there might be 12 songs on it. They might be the songs I’d pick myself. They may be part of what fits in with what people at the station see as a perceived sound. It’s not my programme, so it’s like going to somebody else’s party. If you tune in to my evening show you’re coming to my party and I have my own records, thank you!
Do you feel uncomfortable on the Breakfast Show?
Not now. I did at first. People would go “I can’t believe Tom Dunne played Gwen Stefani!” But that stopped after a while. Aberfeldy was our single of the week recently, and Ray Lamontagne the week before.
But the boundaries between pop and rock seemed to have become quite blurred anyway.
Absolutely. I don’t know if that’s a bad thing. I think we’re going back to asking is it a good or a bad song. People are more eclectic in their tastes now too. AC/DC fans can also like Fountains of Wayne.
Is the iPod contributing to people focusing on individual songs rather than albums?
Yeah, it’s contributing, but the move was already underway. The music has become so old at 50 years. There are people who can’t make head nor sense of any if it and they don’t realise that if you liked mod bands you weren’t supposed to like hippy bands. That way of thinking is ancient history to them. They just like what they like.
And a lot of bands too are going back to the sounds and styles of the ‘60s.
Yeah. Hard-Fi are The Clash and that’s a good thing! I’m always happy to hear The Clash on the radio, even if they’re called Hard-Fi these days!
So what, if anything, is wrong with Irish radio?
Not enough thought goes into it. Some people are too willing just to do up a playlist and don’t argue with it. It’s based on market research, so don’t argue with that either. The idea that it’s all based randomly on people who take phone-calls in the middle of the day is a little 'specialist'. It’s like going into a wine shop. You want the person selling you the wine to know a little about it, not just to tell you he made a few phone calls at random and bases his recommendations on the views of people whose interests in wine might be very casual. They might recommend wine I wouldn’t want to wash my feet in!
I suspect that a lot of the decision-makers in radio have no interest in music anyway?
Yeah, there is a bit of that.
And many DJs have no interest in music either.
No interest whatsoever! They mispronounce names of bands, like the guy who announced a track by Crosby, Stills, Nash and You because the print out couldn’t fit the ‘n’ and the ‘g’! INXS have been pronounced “inks”!
But why does somebody want to be a DJ if they’ve no interest in music?
I can’t understand that at all. But there is a breed of person who seems to get high on just being on the radio. They refer to “fresh new” music as if they were talking about vegetables. But I’m actually glad I can’t understand any of that and I don’t ever want to. They have odd nick names too. Storms and weather conditions tend to cover up a lot!
There seems to be an assumption with some radio heads that you can’t like music from different genres.
Yeah, I’ve gone from a Keane track into a Sharon Shannon track and some people look at me as if I have two heads. I don’t see the problem. In fact you can get a really interesting mix by doing that, like a David Holmes soundtrack, with bits and pieces from different decades and even countries. Once you use your ear it shouldn’t be a problem.
What critical feedback have you had from listeners?
I think people trust me now, but in the early days I’d get a bit of stick for playing diddley-eye stuff. That’s stopped. But I get a few texts saying I’m a wanker.
A wanker? What have you done?
You might fade their favourite record. That’s an unforgiveable crime for AC/DC or metal fans especially. It’s disrespect as they see it. Talking over the end of a track is another sin. And there are some who just can’t get their heads around their favourite bands songs being covered by other artists. So when I played Scissor Sisters’ ‘Comfortably Numb’, which I thought was great, there were absolute death-threats from Pink Floyd fans! Are you fucking crazy! You cannot do this! This is wrong! Stop It!
And some covers shed new light on old songs too.
Yes, ‘Hurt’ by Johnny Cash was just amazing. Those mix-up records, which I’m a huge fan of, they wreck some people’s heads. But if the people who wrote these songs had the same closed minds they never would have written anything. In fact Pink Floyd were open to trying any idea. So I’m looking forward to hearing that new mix-up of Celine Dion and Sigur Ros. That sounds like an amazing concept! I can’t wait to get my hands on that.
Won’t you get complaints for playing that?
Of course! If you were to name somebody you could describe as Mr Alternative, it could be Frank Black. If you were to come up with a name to describe the unacceptable face of music, it would be Celine Dion.
Should it be compulsory for music DJs to have spent some time as musicians first?
Yeah, that’d be a good idea. Although there are some presenters, like Jonathan Ross, for example, who are great at presenting music, but I’m not sure what he knows about playing music per se. What you really want from a music DJ is some passion about the music. That could nearly be enough. Fanning probably never played in bands but he’s never lost that fascination with music.
So which do you prefer, Rick or Ruth?
I’d have to say Rick and Ruth, as they’re an inseparable pair. Where does Rick end and Ruth begin, that’s what I want to know?
U2’s ‘Vertigo’ was, to my ears, a total rip-off of parts of Something Happens’ ‘Hello, Hello, Hello...’.
I saw them at Croke Park and Bono and The Edge started into the “hello, hello” riff and the hairs on the back of my neck stood up! That’s exactly how we did it, with that call-and-answer spot with the crowd. My partner Audrey and me looked at each other and said, "It’s scary, isn’t it?” (laughs). But it’s great to see that nod in our direction.
No massive lawsuit pending then?
No. If we were going to go down that road it would have been against Nirvana.
What did you think of Emm Gryner’s version of ‘Forget Georgia’?
I really like it. It’s the first cover of one of our songs I’ve ever heard, although there have been others. I had all the same criticisms I had when we recorded something, always thinking that bit could be improved, or be longer or slower or whatever. It’s that self-criticism that stops me playing our own stuff on the radio.
So why have you never embarked on a solo career?
I’m too lazy. If I did, the first person I’d call would be Ray Harmon (of Something Happens), and then we’d feel guilty about not asking Ted and Alan (the rest of the band) and we’d be back where we started! I’d feel like a charlatan going on stage without them.
But before the Happens you had a band prophetically called The End.
Yes. We did 74 gigs to 73 people. A very good average! As a friend of mine says, at first very few people came to the gigs, but as soon as word got around, nobody came! Which was true!
So how did the ‘Happens, er, happen?
Johnny Bonnie, The End’s drummer, told me about three guys who were looking for a singer. They had about 10 instrumentals and were so bad with words they couldn’t even think of titles for them. One was called ‘The Fast One’, another was ‘The One With The Weird Bit In The Middle’ and ‘The Slightly Slower One’. So I took them home and wrote words for them and brought them back as properly grown-up songs. We took to each other immediately. You couldn’t have made it up. We were then able to refer to compositions as ‘Burn Clear’ or ‘Forget Georgia’ and then we knew which one we were talking about. It was a quantum leap for all of us!
You feature in the new ad campaign for Vodophone with Dave Fanning. People saw you as “the new Fanning”, so how do you get on with him?
Very good. He’s been very generous with his advice and I’m still a big fan. He was the first person to play ‘Burn Clear’. He’s been besotted by music since he was a child and has never had any interest in the real world. If he hadn’t been a DJ, what else could he have done? I can’t think of anything.
Are you called on often for advice now yourself?
Yes. Sometimes I get letters from bands, not so much looking for airplay but for advice or wanting me to sit in and talk to them, which is something I don’t really have enough time for.
But bands don’t really pay heed to free advice, do they?
No, not enough. If they were playing proper attention in the first place they wouldn’t be sending in the stuff they send in. If they played their own songs back to back with their own musical heroes, they’d know they weren’t even off the starting blocks and we shouldn’t be playing this stuff to people.
What are the most common problems you encounter with new bands?
Sometimes the song has been on for a minute and a half and we’re still at the intro. And I know you love this, the old chestnut of sending in 12 songs and a note to say the eleventh song is the good one. Nobody is going to get to the eleventh song. Some bands think the world is really waiting for a really slow dirge-like song that will move people to tears when they hear it in a traffic-jam.
Isn’t it sometimes the case that they want you to tell them things that they know themselves already but can’t say to each other?
Yeah, somebody in the band may be afraid to say what needs to be said and so they look outside for a reaction. It’s why so many singer-songwriters get on, because they can try out a song live and people either take to it or not. No discussion necessary.
On the subject of criticism, I notice you keep using the word fantastic a lot on your show. Why is that?
Yeah, it’s true, but I don’t know why.
Is there a shortage of adjectives in your vocabulary?
No, there’s marvelous, magnificent, brilliant, very good, excellent, quite a few, actually.
How about fabulous?
No, I haven’t tried fabulous, but I could try it, maybe for a month!
Maybe you could make September, Fabulous month?
Ok, I’ll give it a go! (laughs)
Will downloading kill the album if people become focused on individual tracks?
I don’t think so. But it depends on how good the albums are. I was listening to Beggar’s Banquet by the Stones and you need to hear the entire album, not just ‘Sympathy For The Devil’ and a couple of other tracks.
But do you need to hear all of the new Oasis album, or just the key tracks?
The Oasis album isn’t bad. It depends on whether bands continue to write and record great albums rather than just a few singles and some fillers. Some artists live for their album tracks. Trying to pick a radio track from, say, Arcade Fire, can be difficult but it’s a beautiful album.
U2 have been making number one albums for more than 20 years. Do you think any of the current crop of bands will still be up there 25 years from now?
I wouldn’t bet on it. It’s incredibly hard to stay at the top for that long. Bands get indulgent. If their music becomes popular, they think there’s something wrong with it! They seem to feel at some point that they have to prove themselves as serious artists making meaningful music and they make an album that nobody wants and they lose momentum.
Can you think of an example?
Sean Millar (Dr Millar to the rest of us) told me once that he made the album The Bitter Lie [because] he really wanted...an album that had no melody, which he likened to sweet saccharine, and would get no airplay. He wanted to make an album that was “the truth”. And he reckoned that he succeeded on all counts!
So what’s the story about your own new compilation album?
It’s called Tom Dunne’s Alternative Irish Anthems and I’m really delighted with it. I love putting these compilations together, but this one especially. You can only put about 34 tracks on them before your interest peters out, so picking the tracks can be difficult, getting that blend that makes musical sense in terms of the running order. I approach it as if I was putting together my own album, starting off with a big song, then a couple to keep the pace then something that takes it down a little. Then you have to make sure your covering an appropriate range of artist and that you don’t leave out somebody that should be included. So it takes time to get it right.
Why not let the word out in advance so that people can send in tracks?
That could be embarrassing, coming under pressure to use tracks by bands that really in my view don’t really fit the scheme of the album. But I did talk to people like Niall Stokes and Donal Gallagher to see what they felt should be included. I didn’t realise how much of an alternative music fan I’ve been until I looked back. I’ve been into The Smiths and REM and U2 for example, before they got anywhere near the mainstream. REM were alternative for seven albums! But I always wanted my favourite bands like The Blades or Chant Chant Chant to be in the mainstream.
But as soon as their band gets into the mainstream, don’t some fans believe that they’ve sold out and they move onto somebody else, like a form of musical snobbery?
Yeah. I totally disagree with that attitude. I actually love it when bands I like penetrate the mainstream. It’s like they’re intruders who have no right to be there! I would have loved to have seen The Clash on Top Of The Pops. When I saw Siouxsie and The Banshees on Top Of The Pops I ran down the road to tell my best friend. It’s like our world is invading that other world.
But the compilation covers Irish music from the ‘60s too, doesn’t it?
Yes, I began to wonder what was the alternative music in Ireland in the ‘60s when the showbands were the last thing you wanted and the ballad groups ruled as well. There were alternatives to showbands just doing cover versions, like The Freshmen, but although they wrote their own material they were really just an Irish version of The Beach Boys. Sitting down and trying to write another version of ‘Good Vibrations’ is a bad place to start! So many acts of the time were marketed as the Irish answer to this or that top international act. According to Donal (Gallagher), you could count the alternative stuff in the ’60s on one hand, like Rory Gallagher or Them.
Wasn’t it extraordinary, then, that we could produce talents like Rory and Them?
Yes, but Rory and others picked up on music that came in through the ports from the sailors on the ships through Derry and Cork and Belfast and Dublin. That’s how the beat scene started in the UK too, with American blues records coming in through Liverpool and London and Keith Richards listening to Robert Johnston.
But was it any better in the ‘70s?
It was really bad in the ‘70s. (laughs) It was just Horslips and nothing else. Horslips saved Ireland, really. International bands wouldn’t come here much, partly because of the troubles in the north. More international bands played Oxegen over that one weekend than played Ireland for the whole of the ‘70s.
So what was your own particular baptism into Irish music?
I was in The Gaeltacht in 1977 and got the first HOTPRESS with Rory Gallagher on the cover. It was like being ushered into another world, with venues, and other bands and advertising for members to join bands and so on. Then ads in HOTPRESS for musicians would always refer to “no bread-heads” and “no time-wasters”! (laughs)
What about the early ‘80s?
There wasn’t really much to follow in the wake of U2’s rise, maybe In Tua Nua, Blue In Heaven, Cactus World News – they weren’t really great bands, although they had moments. Later, when I was part of it, I suppose I didn’t really appreciate how good it was, with the Golden Horde, Stars Of Heaven, A House, Aslan, The Four Of Us and The Stunning coming through. So, ultimately, there was no shortage of great stuff for the compilation.
So what were the first tracks you picked?
I actually went through it chronologically and eventually picked 35 tracks, although they don’t run chronologically. You have to pick a running order that makes musical sense. I felt I had to have a Taste track, and Van. Unfortunately I wanted to use ‘Baby Please Don’t Go’ but couldn’t get the copyright clearance, so I settled for Van’s ‘Brown-Eyed Girl’. I could have picked any U2 track, like ‘Out Of Control’ but I also wanted to have some current stuff, so the album starts with ‘Vertigo’. Getting a track to follow it was hard.
Apart from Them, was their anything else you wanted to use but couldn’t?
I wanted to use ‘Soon’ by My Blood Valentine, but couldn’t get permission. I would have loved to have that.
So who else is in there?
Many of the bands and artists I’ve already mentioned, as well as Snow Patrol, BellX1, Damien Rice and Damien Dempsey.
The Walls have been criticized for letting their music be used in an AIB commercial and you’re in the Vodophone ads with Dave. Isn’t that quite a change from the time when any kind of dealing with the corporate world was a serious crime for real rock people?
People forget how hard it can be for bands sometimes, especially Irish bands, so for The Walls to have had that track used may have been a real boost and maybe the spur to keep going, and if it did, I’m glad it did because the new Walls album is great.
If being used in a commercial shines a light on a new song or maybe reminds people about an old classic song, to me that’s a good thing. I don’t care how people get to hear the music, so long as it happens. The Dandy Warhols' material being used in commercials can take its to a new audience that might never have heard it and that’s a good thing in my book. It can be the difference between being able to make the next album or go back to the day jobs. And nobody wants that, do they?
Tom Dunne’s Alternative Irish Anthems features tracks by artists including U2, Stars Of Heaven, The Frank & Walters and Microdisney. It’s out now on Rubyworks.